Crank but no start
#41
02-25-2020, 01:53 PM
I'll check those out Derf and answer. What's odd is that after sitting for week my new battery is completely dead - 0 Volts and 0% charged. Something is draining this battery.
FYI - OBD Link MX+ will not provide module specific info for the '02 SC. Here's what their Tech Support wrote:
"Currently, the OBDLink app's support for the Saturn S-series only ranges from 1996–1999. While the MX+ can access SW-CAN, I do not believe that the OBDLink app will be able to provide any more Enhanced Diagnostics for your specific vehicle. If you have not done so already, my recommendation would be to visit a forum for your specific vehicle to see if any users may have any suggestions for an app/software that has access to GM proprietary information as well".
FYI - OBD Link MX+ will not provide module specific info for the '02 SC. Here's what their Tech Support wrote:
"Currently, the OBDLink app's support for the Saturn S-series only ranges from 1996–1999. While the MX+ can access SW-CAN, I do not believe that the OBDLink app will be able to provide any more Enhanced Diagnostics for your specific vehicle. If you have not done so already, my recommendation would be to visit a forum for your specific vehicle to see if any users may have any suggestions for an app/software that has access to GM proprietary information as well".
#42
02-25-2020, 11:50 PM
I have an OBDLink MX+m staring at me from across the table.
96-2002 S cars are all plain jane OBDII. CANBus never found its way into the S Cars. So in that regard, their answer is a bit off.
HOWEVER, only 3rd gen S cars had BCMs -- so that is why he is cutting off at 99 - because they cannot read the BCM codes on those 3rd gen s cars (and there is no BCM on the earlier S cars)
He should have used the term "fully supported."
Unless you have a GM Tech II tool (works) or maybe a high end SnapOn tool, the BCM codes on S cars will remain hidden unless you take it to a GM dealership or an independent mechanic with the right tools.
For the record: U1000 is a Class 2 SERIAL communications error, in an S Car, NOT a CANbus error. S cars never got canbus.
The only way to drill down and determine what's wrong is to start tracing the serial communication lines. The FSM should lay out a logical progression.
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As for current drain, I'm going to guess the diodes in your alternator are wasted and current was running bckwards through them directly to ground.
Do NOT leave your battery at 0%. Doing so shortens its life.
96-2002 S cars are all plain jane OBDII. CANBus never found its way into the S Cars. So in that regard, their answer is a bit off.
HOWEVER, only 3rd gen S cars had BCMs -- so that is why he is cutting off at 99 - because they cannot read the BCM codes on those 3rd gen s cars (and there is no BCM on the earlier S cars)
He should have used the term "fully supported."
Unless you have a GM Tech II tool (works) or maybe a high end SnapOn tool, the BCM codes on S cars will remain hidden unless you take it to a GM dealership or an independent mechanic with the right tools.
For the record: U1000 is a Class 2 SERIAL communications error, in an S Car, NOT a CANbus error. S cars never got canbus.
The only way to drill down and determine what's wrong is to start tracing the serial communication lines. The FSM should lay out a logical progression.
------------------
As for current drain, I'm going to guess the diodes in your alternator are wasted and current was running bckwards through them directly to ground.
Do NOT leave your battery at 0%. Doing so shortens its life.
#43
02-26-2020, 04:35 PM
Derf, my battery charger failed, just got a new one so it'll be awhile before I can check the light's, spark, etc....Also, ordered OBDLink MX Bluetooth, be nice to have in the toolbox. The MX+ was "out of stock" and the only difference I could see was free OEM add-ons and IOs - my newest car is an '06 and I'm Android.
I've read and reread your email many times and I'm a bit confused, but that's not unusual. Tracing the serial com lines may be beyond my skills and if so are you suggesting I have this towed to a GM dealer? Before I do that I'll do the tests you recommended and keep you posted.
As always, Thanks.
Doug
I've read and reread your email many times and I'm a bit confused, but that's not unusual. Tracing the serial com lines may be beyond my skills and if so are you suggesting I have this towed to a GM dealer? Before I do that I'll do the tests you recommended and keep you posted.
As always, Thanks.
Doug
#45
02-27-2020, 07:16 PM
Derf, yes charging with the battery disconnected, the old charger was acting weird and stopped charging at 40%. I'm 100% with the new charger.
Did some testing. The power windows, dome light, radio, mirrors, fan, work fine. Did get the chime with lights on, key out, door open. BUT, when I turn the key on, the gas gauge actually goes a bit negative from "E". I know there's at least 4 gal of gas in there.
Checked the fuel Schrader valve. A few drops of gas came out then stopped. I cranked the engine a few times, checked again and there was no gas at all. I do not hear the fuel pump when turning the key on.
Checked for spark using a cheap in-line tester from AutoZone. No spark. BUT I'm not sure I trust that tester.
As always, appreciate the assist
Doug
Did some testing. The power windows, dome light, radio, mirrors, fan, work fine. Did get the chime with lights on, key out, door open. BUT, when I turn the key on, the gas gauge actually goes a bit negative from "E". I know there's at least 4 gal of gas in there.
Checked the fuel Schrader valve. A few drops of gas came out then stopped. I cranked the engine a few times, checked again and there was no gas at all. I do not hear the fuel pump when turning the key on.
Checked for spark using a cheap in-line tester from AutoZone. No spark. BUT I'm not sure I trust that tester.
As always, appreciate the assist
Doug
#47
03-17-2020, 05:04 PM
Well, been researching the excellent threads on this topic. A few things. All fuses are good, don’t know how to test relays. Confirmed no fuel from Schrader valve. Confirmed no spark; pulled cables from coil pack no spark between terminals. This leads to the CPSensor. I can’t test it or replace it. I’m pushing 70 with pretty recent back surgery. I could have a mobile mechanic install a new one in a heartbeat.
Did probe the fuel pump test port on the IP fuse block. Not sure what it should be but there was no voltage, key on, and no short to ground, key off.
Tried to reset the Passlock using the instructions for a coded lock cylinder which I have. Instructions say the Security light should go out after 10 minutes, it was still on after 25 minutes, and am wondering if this could be my problem. (A few years ago I had to have a locksmith change the tumblers and cut new keys, but have used them with no problem since then).
If Passlock is not the problem I’m seriously considering replacing the ECM/PCM. All electronics seem to be working properly except for the gas gauge, so the BCM may not be my U1000 issue. I’ve gotten wildly different pricing on ECM’s. AC Delco sells to individuals through Amazon - $899, another quoted $450, Flagship One is around $160. They claim to be a world leader but I have my doubts. Any experience with them?
The GM dealer is $160 to scan and diagnose, plus towing, plus expensive parts, labor and tax. If I can replace the CPS and ECM/PCM for $350 and fix the problem it’s a bargain.
Please let me know what you think, thanks.
Did probe the fuel pump test port on the IP fuse block. Not sure what it should be but there was no voltage, key on, and no short to ground, key off.
Tried to reset the Passlock using the instructions for a coded lock cylinder which I have. Instructions say the Security light should go out after 10 minutes, it was still on after 25 minutes, and am wondering if this could be my problem. (A few years ago I had to have a locksmith change the tumblers and cut new keys, but have used them with no problem since then).
If Passlock is not the problem I’m seriously considering replacing the ECM/PCM. All electronics seem to be working properly except for the gas gauge, so the BCM may not be my U1000 issue. I’ve gotten wildly different pricing on ECM’s. AC Delco sells to individuals through Amazon - $899, another quoted $450, Flagship One is around $160. They claim to be a world leader but I have my doubts. Any experience with them?
The GM dealer is $160 to scan and diagnose, plus towing, plus expensive parts, labor and tax. If I can replace the CPS and ECM/PCM for $350 and fix the problem it’s a bargain.
Please let me know what you think, thanks.
#48
03-18-2020, 01:45 AM
In layman's terms, the ignition switch senses the key, that sensing signal talks to the BCM to say yep that's the right key, the BCM communicates to the ECU a password so to speak. The password must match what the ecu is expecting. If all this works out, the injectors are uninhibited, meaning the default state with passlock activated is to inhibit operation of the injectors.
The fact that you have no fuel at the rail would indicate to me an issue with the fuel pump or the electrical circuit that runs it including the fuse or relay. If you did not hear any noise when you turn the key on, then the fuel pump is not priming. Then the question becomes why.
Normally I would agree with you that no spark plus no fuel at the injectors points to CKP. However if there is no fuel at the rail, there is something not right before you can lay blame on the ckp.
The fact that your gas gauge is wonky May point at an electrical issue at the connections to the fuel pump. If the sending unit and the fuel pump are on the same circuit, you may have lost a ground which is keeping the fuel pump from running and also messing up the voltage signal sent by the sending unit as the ground side of that circuit may be floating.
Does your dome light work inside the car? Serious question.
The fact that you have no fuel at the rail would indicate to me an issue with the fuel pump or the electrical circuit that runs it including the fuse or relay. If you did not hear any noise when you turn the key on, then the fuel pump is not priming. Then the question becomes why.
Normally I would agree with you that no spark plus no fuel at the injectors points to CKP. However if there is no fuel at the rail, there is something not right before you can lay blame on the ckp.
The fact that your gas gauge is wonky May point at an electrical issue at the connections to the fuel pump. If the sending unit and the fuel pump are on the same circuit, you may have lost a ground which is keeping the fuel pump from running and also messing up the voltage signal sent by the sending unit as the ground side of that circuit may be floating.
Does your dome light work inside the car? Serious question.
#49
03-18-2020, 01:51 AM
If passlock is the issue, that is embedded entirely the BCM not the ECM. make sure you are following the directions to the letter interpreting everything as literally as possible. Also make sure to have the car hooked up with a charger across the battery so that the ECM receives full power. Otherwise this will not work if the battery voltage drops too low during the process. I would hold off on replacing anything just yet.
if I remember correctly this vehicle has the communications issue. Depending which module is bad, the vehicle may be completely confused. I'm not sure whether the BCM controls the fuel pump on a 3rd generation S car because only the third generation S cars got a BCM and I only own a first-generation and second-generation s car. I can try to help you sort it out. Just know some of it will be your territory for me. Territory I should have covered in the last 15 years but hey we all procrastinate. Looks like I'll have plenty of time to research this one
if I remember correctly this vehicle has the communications issue. Depending which module is bad, the vehicle may be completely confused. I'm not sure whether the BCM controls the fuel pump on a 3rd generation S car because only the third generation S cars got a BCM and I only own a first-generation and second-generation s car. I can try to help you sort it out. Just know some of it will be your territory for me. Territory I should have covered in the last 15 years but hey we all procrastinate. Looks like I'll have plenty of time to research this one
#50
03-18-2020, 11:10 AM
OK......double checked the dome light and cig lighter. Both function as it should, door open on, door closed off after 20 sec or so. All lights, tail, brake, head, signals, running, wipers, window, power door locks, mirrors, work fine.
In a different thread Derf, you posted a link to a PDF for Passlock reset. I printed it and followed exactly with a charger connected. It's not complicated for the coded lock cylinder.
1. Turn ignition on 2. Attempt to start engine return key to 'on'. 3. After 10 minutes the Security light will go off. 4. Turn ignition Off for 10 seconds. Then repeat the procedure 3 times. The problem is that in step 3 the Security light did not go Off after 25 minutes so I stopped.
Regarding the fuel pump, on the IPJB I did swap the fuel pump relay with the blower relay as they were the same. The blower works fine with either relay.
I can research how to trouble shoot the fuel pump but if you have any shortcuts just let me know! Thanks!
Right now I'm not going anywhere either!
In a different thread Derf, you posted a link to a PDF for Passlock reset. I printed it and followed exactly with a charger connected. It's not complicated for the coded lock cylinder.
1. Turn ignition on 2. Attempt to start engine return key to 'on'. 3. After 10 minutes the Security light will go off. 4. Turn ignition Off for 10 seconds. Then repeat the procedure 3 times. The problem is that in step 3 the Security light did not go Off after 25 minutes so I stopped.
Regarding the fuel pump, on the IPJB I did swap the fuel pump relay with the blower relay as they were the same. The blower works fine with either relay.
I can research how to trouble shoot the fuel pump but if you have any shortcuts just let me know! Thanks!
Right now I'm not going anywhere either!