Hello all, I see someone else has a 1995 manual trans. so that’s cool. I just bought a 1995 sc2 manual with 184000 miles and not started or run in 6 years. New fuel filter, new injectors, new pressure regulator, cleaned and inspected plugs. New battery of course. Has been dead for many years. Started it today and several problems of course. First the electric fan came on after 2 minutes while engine still cold. Idle is erratic. Fan stopped and never came on again even when approaching red line on temperature gauge. Exhaust has a distinct flutter in it like a valve problem or too lean. So is the pcm suspect or start with more basics. If the accelerator is advanced then the engine hesitatates. Coolant is coming out of the screw on cap on reservoir. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

• Please tell me you changed the oil before you started it.
• NEW NGK 5643 plugs (stock) copper cheap gapped.040 or I'm not helping you
• New air filter (didn't see on list) Remove Rodent nest in air box
• New brass ECTS and pigtail connector. Two wire device not one wire device. The temperature measurement made here in the cylinder head is one of the things that controls when the fan turns on. Issues with either the sensor or the connector or the wiring will lead to all sorts of problems. .
• PCMs on S cars rarely fail. Cross off list
• Fan came on after 2 minutes because thermostat is stuck shut due to who knows what goo is pretending to be coolant. Coolant not flowing equals static coolant absorbing heat but flowing nowhere leading to immediate overheat. Overheat creates pressure higher than the release pressure of the reservoir cap so the safety release in the cap opens and out comes coolant. Uses old-fashioned green coolant.
• I'm sure that 6-year-old liquid formerly acting as a coolant smelled like roses.
• When cool, drain the system by removing the lower radiator hose and the drain plug in the block. Do not mess with the petcock on the radiator, it is literally glued in place internally with crud.
• Replace the thermostat with anything other than what comes in an AC Delco professional box. Look it up on Amazon to find out what it actually is and don't buy that either. What comes in that box is the absolute worst thermostat on the market for an s car. Mine failed in under a day. Stant is the standard. Make sure the thermostat and gasket you purchase are compatible with the thermostat housing. You'll see what I mean when you buy the first set and they don't fit.
• Close the cooling system after replacing thermostat, fill with water only and let run. At least long enough for thermostat to open so that you get complete flow through the system. Whatever has been in there eating at the cooling passages in the block and the radiator needs to get diluted and rinsed out if possible but not by force. Trying to do a pressure flush will dislodge unknown amounts of crap into the flow and likely clog your radiator. Drain the system.
• Install the new thermostat. Keep installing it every time I mention it unless it is already installed. In which case disregard. Replace the drained water with a 50/50 mix of distilled water and old fashioned green coolant. If you do not use distilled water, you will further increase the cooling channel corrosion plus I will not help you
• Unplug the connector that powers the fan. Carefully connect the positive and negative leads to the battery without letting them touch at the connector. Tape an alligator clip lead around the clip after attaching it to the connector to keep the other lead from shorting on it. Let the fan run for a few minutes to see if it overheats itself. If it does not it will work for now
• If your vehicle again overheats in 2 minutes or the fan goes on right away after you have changed the ECTS, there is a still an issue, the new thermostat is defective, or there is a blockage somewhere in the system. Or the water pump may have failed. You should feel both the lower and upper radiator hoses getting warm in that order. If they both remain cold as the vehicle runs, then likely there is no flow as the bottom hose should have hot coolant from the engine being pushed into the radiator.
• That means clog. Possibly heater core, or pretty much anywhere else. You'll have a better idea of what you're dealing with when you see what gets drained and rinsed out of the cooling system. I'm willing to bet the person before you did not use distilled water. This is why you use distilled water. Chemical reactions with minerals in non-distilled water.
• Engine hesitating while hitting the accelerator is another symptom of the ECTS providing incorrect temperature information to the PCM. Incorrect temperature information leads to the wrong air fuel mix, usually too rich, resulting in hard starting and bogging down upon acceleration.
• Purchase and install the denso equivalent of the O2 sensor. If you buy the Bosch sensor I will not help you. It is a piece of shayt.
• OEM is a private label denso. Go to RockAuto and match up the pictures between the AC Delco OEM and the denso.
• Are you sure you purchased the correct type of injectors for the first gen Saturn engines? They are not the same type as 97 and later.
• Clean the throttle body with throttle body cleaner while on the car. You should be able to get it clean enough and the IAC passage clean enough that it will run smoothly. Operate the throttle by hand under the hood while you are spraying or it will just stall. Go through about 3/4 of a can in your case and be sure to get the back and edges of the butterfly valve and plate. If you use carb cleaner or choke cleaner I will not help you.
• Hopefully there is no old gas in the tank. If there is, you can purge it by disconnecting the fuel line at the inlet to the fuel filter, then cycling the fuel pump with the key. Note that you will need to remove the key every three or four primes, count to five, then reinsert the key and continue. The reason for this design? **** if I know. Once the gas gets down below a quarter tank, let the pump rest from the priming every now and then or you will burn it up. It's the gasoline that surrounds it when the tank is full that dissipates heat from the pump. The low 1/4 tank on this car and the pump starts becoming exposed. I have an original factory fuel pump in my 97 SC2 with 265,000 mi on it. The number of times I have let it below one quarter tank is three. Sorry I think you got out of hand about the fuel pump thing. Anyway some of your rough running is probably from bad gas or goop in the fuel lines which you will want to get out of there so they do not immediately clog your new injectors which hopefully are the correct type
• If you have a ton of gas in there you may end up having to drop the tank. That sucks. If you do, replace the support straps and maybe the fuel pump altogether while you are there.
• Keep a very close eye on your oil consumption. There's likely a reason it was parked for 6 years and that may be one of them. Also check for small air bubbles in the reservoir tank once the thermostat has opened. Having started the vehicle ice cold with the reservoir cap off. Because the thermostat is closed initially, you will see no flow. Once the thermostat opens you will see a swirly kind of flow. Air bubbles entering the expansion reservoir usually indicate a failing head gasket. Let me know if that is the case when you get to it.
• Remove the EGR valve. The pintle is probably stuck in place. Do not force it. Soak the internals in carb cleaner for 1 hour then try to gently work the pencil in and out and if possible around. I believe it is a torx at the end of the pintle. Spray with more carb cleaner while holding it upside down so that it drains out carrying dissolved scuzz with it. The goal is to get as much of the baked on carbon out of the valve and ultimately to have a pintle spin freely but more importantly move in and out freely with no restrictions. Be gentle and keep spraying until the motion is unimpeded. You can try to replace the EGR gasket but in my experience half is baked onto the mounting surface and the other half is baked onto the valve and if you are gentle and meticulous you can line up where they separate perfectly and it seals fine.
• However, before you do that, you will want to eject as much carbon scuzz as you can coming straight off the engine. This involves spraying carb and choke cleaner to rinse and dissolve carbon of the inside of the pipe carrying the exhaust into the EGR valve. Give a good healthy spray and wait about 15 minutes while things loosen up. While cold.
• Go get some hearing protection or I will not help you and you will be deaf
• Hold some sturdy shop rags over the end of the inlet pipe to the EGR and have a buddy crank the engine and let it run. Hold on to those rags as disgusting crap or land on those as opposed to all over your engine compartment. It is at this point you will understand why you are happy to be wearing hearing protection. Repeat the soak and blast sequence as well as you can because whatever you don't remove by this method will quickly clog the EGR all over again.
• Now install the Denso O2 sensor.
• Start the vehicle, making sure to have firmly tightened the reservoir cap and have the oil full which is 4 quarts. Ignore literature and run 10W-30 at a minimum. It's depending on where you live it can be heavier.
• Remnants of bad gas will probably lead to a few misfires, but because you have new plugs in there, there should be a minor issue. The exhaust note should also smooth out.
• Temperature gauge should rise smoothly to just under the halfway mark. Fan should remain off.
• Proper thermostat operation should open at 185 through 195. Proper thermostat operation should not lead to overheating. Again, water pump maybe suspect but we won't know that until a bit later. If the vehicle still overheats, then you will need to track down the source of the clog and the cooling system. Most likely starting place is the heater core. There is no bypass line in this vehicle so the coolant is always circulating through the heater core. Just a guess.
• If everything goes as it should, the car should idle between 800 and 850 RPM with a stability of plus or minus 15 RPM. It may take some time for the PCM to convince itself that everything is as it should be. It is old. Be respectful.
• These vehicles have a nasty engine resonance around idle. Verify that the engine itself is idling smoothly. If you're intestines are being rearranged while you sit in the driver's seat, you need at minimum an upper torque access mount TAM. All aftermarket brands suck. I think I got a DEA. One of the better ones that suck. These upper mounts are consumables on an S car.
• Oh I forgot. Don't forget dielectric Grease when you hook up the plug wires on both ends.
• Also, you will want to sand off with very high grit sandpaper the terminals on the ignition coils. Wipe away debris, cover with the electric grease and reattach plug wire ends.
• Also, when you have the plug wires off, check for oil in the plug wells before removing the plugs. If you see signs of oil, you will need to replace the cam cover gasket. As long as it is not spewing oil onto the plugs or around the outer edge, it can wait
• Install a new PVC valve from standard motor products. It sucks the least of the aftermarket brands in my personal non-professional opinion.
• There will be things that don't work in the cabin like the emergency flasher switch, turn signal switches windshield washer pump wand. Most of these are simply due to corrosion on the contacts within the switches. If you work them gently and long enough you will scrape the corrosion off the contacts and they will work again.

On next week's show, well cover parking brake adjustment, evap issues, why there is gas spring out onto the ground near the back of the car, and determining if the factory shifter bushing is still in place. I'm guessing it is. I'm also guessing you should prepare for the eventuality of its demise.

It should be clear I take great pride in maintaining my 95 Saturn SC2.
If you don't share the same dedication, I will not help you.

Peace

 

Damn, derf wrote you a book on what you need to do. Being an old school, back yard wrench puller for 50+ years, I can't think of ANYTHING he didn't mention. He even mentioned stuff I wouldn't have thought of (proud of you, my friend). If you follow his advice, there's absolutely no reason that I can see why you wouldn't get a nice car out of that. Keep in mind that I've NEVER worked as a mechanic. I just do all of my own work because I DO NOT trust shops or people who call themselves "mechanics" for the most part. I've seen way to many people get screwed is why.

 

I am a certified class one hack. I have spent more time answering questions on S cars on this forum then I have working on my own.

There are certain things on an S car that need to be stock for the equivalent of stock if you want to root out 90% of the additional problems that show up by not having them be stock. They don't show up on every car but when they show up, you have no idea why unless somebody tells you. That person has me. I have met people in parking lots fighting to get old S cars throw inspection. They stop by my driveway. One set of codes is always ignition related. I go get a box of NGK 4653s and remove the plugs without even looking at them and put the correct ones in. Clear the codes start it up, ignition codes all gone. Depending on goofy evap code, I use Emory cloth to ever so slightly remove corrosion around the filler opening, wipe the crap off the cap seal, put 001 oz of Vaseline on the o-ring. Open and close the gas cap 10 times. Clear the code. Have them start the car, let it run 30 seconds turn it off. Do this two more times. Fourth time check engine light goes out. Elapsed time under 10 minutes. These cars are very predictable and very reliable and when they are not reliable they are predictable. I'm not tooting my own horn, I have Rube for that.
I have learned how to troubleshoot properly mostly from Andy on this forum. Sometimes I even put it to use. OBD1 codes can be read with a paperclip. They are ultra basic but still helpful.

There are people out there that know a thousand times more than I do about S cars. You just happened to sign on here.

 

I am so appreciative that there is another 1995 sc2 guy out there. Where do I start, oh my. Yes first I changed the oil . It was black. With the new oil I added Marvel Mystery oil. Your opinion? I emptied all old fuel first which was only 3 gallons. Put in new fuel with a bottle of Heet to dry it out. Then changed fuel filter, pulled the fuel rail and changed pressure regulator and injectors. AC Delco # 19304535. As you stated I hope these are correct. Also I did miss 1 important fact, car has been sitting in a garage unmoved and unstarted for those 6 years. With only 3 gallons in the tank, no bueno. I did remove the radiator petcock and drained out the old yuck and put in 50/50 mix of Prestone green and distilled water. I guess I still need to do the thermostat and redrain using your method. I greatly appreciate your input and I will keep you updated on the obvious future long term accomplishments that must be tackled.

 

Much thanks. I too am a wrencher for over 50years but mostly doing restoration on old cars. Currently restoring a 1979 corvette that is a challenge. I agree with you that his response was very informative and he obviously knows his Saturn business. I will follow his guidance and learn more about sc2 stuff. Sounds to me like a fun kind of adventure to bring this dead baby back to life. I am sure it will be a challenge due to its long storage but this is the kind of stuff I have been doing for 50 years.

 

One more question. Location of the LCTS that needs to be changed?

 

Glad to be of help.I believe you mean ECTS coolant temperature sensor.

It is a two-wire device with a squeeze connector on it. It is mounted in the head on the driver's side. Find the EGR valve take half a step to the right meaning towards the back of the car and look down. You should see it there.

There is a two-wire temperature sensor that is the ECTS that provides information to the PCM. There is also a one wire temp sensor in the general vicinity. That temperature sensor drives the gauge on the dash. Later s cars did away with the one wire sensor.

Save yourself a lot of trouble in the future or tomorrow by replacing the pigtail with the connector to the ECTS. Corrosion on the small contacts that make contact with the small pins in the ECTS are prone to corrosion. The resistance of the ECTS at operating temperature is like 300 ohms and several thousand at I'm not sure 30 degrees f. Anyway, 300 ohms is not a lot of resistance, so anything that adds extra resistance to the circuit screws up the reading. Added resistance fools the PCM into thinking the coolant is colder than it is. When this happens, the fan does not turn on when it's supposed to because per the ECTS the coolant temperature is not hot enough to do so.

You can see how much fun that is going to be. You do not want to be overheating these engines.

Solder and shrink wrap the connections to the new pigtail. Butt splices suck when you have an alternative.

Do not buy the ECTS from advance Autozone etc.
They are crap and seem to have the wrong slope for the resistance to temp behavior. Find a Delphi if you can. If not, let me know what's on RockAuto and I will suggest the most bestest of the restest.
Some people use Teflon tape when installing some don't. I have done both. Doesn't seem to matter. Do not over torque it unless you want to drill it out then remove the head to get the shards out.

I believe I answered more than your original question and for that I apologize. I have been told I am verbose, unfocused, random, annoying, and ugly with a tingle of autism. I can't really understand how other people would think I was autistic, so maybe I am. Ha ha.

 

You are not any of those personalities, you are to Saturn like I am to chevys. Just REALLY dedicated. On a different note, I ordered stuff from rock auto like AC Delco temp. sender, Denso O2 sensor,NGK 5643 X 4, and a Stant thermostat. Please pray with me! Thanks for all your insight into the technical workings of these S cars. It is greatly appreciated.

 

The TAM is what I am referring to in a different reply. Is that the large mount on the passenger side closest to the coolant reservoir? If so I would agree it needs to be changed. See other reply for my question on a kit from rock to replace all 4 mounts. Much thanks.