SL2 Check Engine Light
#12
08-16-2011, 06:11 AM
I am back, no need to worry about that. Over the weekend I had hopped to reconnect my air bag on the passenger side and see if that fixed the problem but unfortunately it rained all weekend and since I do not have a garage I will just have to wait a bit. However I did go to a relatives house and he has a 98 SL2, and he does have the owners manual.
Derf is right that there are two trouble lights. One that says service with a wrench symbol for what the book says are non emission troubles. And of course the one below that one on the dash board that says Service Engine soon.
After reading my relatives manual I found out that when you turn the key to run, without starting the car the Service Engine Soon light should be illuminated. And since it does not I did some more searching and found some posting that if the SES light is blown or shorted it will cause the wrench service light to illuminate. So my thinking is this SES light is non functional and that is what is causing the service with wrench light to be illuminated. However this is just a guess at this time. On wednesday it is suppose to be nice out and not be raining so I plan on working on the auto on that day. Will post my results.
I would have initially agreed with the poster about the Gas cap until I read the owners manual. SInce the gas cap is part of the emissions system I would think if there was a problem with the gas cap, and if my SES light functioned, it would illuminate the SES light. And since my Snap On MT2500 says there are no codes in the computer I would have to say the gas cap is fine. However with as complicated as cars are anymore I could be wrong. Again as time allows I will find the problem and post my findings to share with the community.
Derf is right that there are two trouble lights. One that says service with a wrench symbol for what the book says are non emission troubles. And of course the one below that one on the dash board that says Service Engine soon.
After reading my relatives manual I found out that when you turn the key to run, without starting the car the Service Engine Soon light should be illuminated. And since it does not I did some more searching and found some posting that if the SES light is blown or shorted it will cause the wrench service light to illuminate. So my thinking is this SES light is non functional and that is what is causing the service with wrench light to be illuminated. However this is just a guess at this time. On wednesday it is suppose to be nice out and not be raining so I plan on working on the auto on that day. Will post my results.
I would have initially agreed with the poster about the Gas cap until I read the owners manual. SInce the gas cap is part of the emissions system I would think if there was a problem with the gas cap, and if my SES light functioned, it would illuminate the SES light. And since my Snap On MT2500 says there are no codes in the computer I would have to say the gas cap is fine. However with as complicated as cars are anymore I could be wrong. Again as time allows I will find the problem and post my findings to share with the community.
#13
08-16-2011, 06:54 AM
Snip
However with as complicated as cars are anymore I could be wrong.
Snip
Dems is strong words!
Said many times I like my Saturn. A wierd set of circumstances which also turns out I have owned it since 1996. A 94 SC2 coupe. More or less 16 years or so. One of the options that it came with is the Lady I am spending the rest of my life with. I even like her too.
I consider myself a passable back yard wrench and have been fortunate enough to build pretty much from junk yard sources some pretty nice cars that have won awards locally, regionally and nationally. Are there better, yup, but mine are good.
And owning this car for as long as I have I am still discovering things on it that I had no clue existed and this twin check engine light is one of them.
The catalytic converter went bad on mine. I really did not know it at the time.
I live in Arizona, it is HOT during the summer. Triple digits is HOT, there are mountains here with 7% grades. Care get hot climbing them at 70 mph. Saturns had a design/parts problem long term with the temperature sensor used to display and monitor temperature. I discovered that YEARS ago.
The bottom line? Depending on the circumstances, the heat gauge has pretty much been a useless contrivance on the dash board. Having owned some cars that did not have heat gauges (when it was hot water squirted out of the radiator) and others that did not have working heat gauges or some form of idiot light, when they were hot water squirted out of the radiator, there reaches a point where you don't worry about how hot the damned gauge says it is, if the water ain't boiling you don't worry.
And I got there with mine. Between the gauge always being suspect and as it turns out the slightly plugged cat cause the engine to get pretty hot climbing long 7% grades at 70 mph or more. Yuh I drive too fast most of the time.
And you ignore it because now I am programed to. It ain't boiling.
So
one July4th I am on my way to Cottonwood AZ on I17 crowding the speed limit all the way and there are two long 7% grades out in the middle of the high desert between where are you and you can't get there from here and it is 120 degrees or there about and the heat gauge is rising and it is beginning to scare me. The higher it gets with out going down, running in the red and it is HOT and I am Hot and as it turns out the CAR is hot and I really did not know it. I pretty much didn't believe it.
Until I hit a really steep section and then
it seems from memory there were so many damned lights that went on from the dash board I thought I had turned on a Christmas Tree. I had no clue some them existed.
No I don't remember them, but it caught my attention out there in the heat and the pukerbrush.
There was a gas station about 10 miles down the road and I figured if I could get there at least I could get to a phone and some help. If this thing was that hot, it was probably toast by now anyway. I looked for signs of steam? None, I turned off the AC (yup it is 120 degrees) I knew the road was pretty much flat for awhile and I was not about to shut things down and look in the middle of no where for fear it would not start, opened all the windows that the moon roof, slowed down to something reasonable and trucked on.
To my surprise the christmast tree indicators turned off and shortly the heat gauge came out of the red and I got to the gas station and pulled off the road. I left the engine running (I still needed to get some where and as long it was running I was gonna try) opened the hood to check for overheating sysmpton, none, no water blowing anywhere, no steam no bubbling sounds made a decision to gamble and continued on. It was a scary moment.
Complicated cars? Oh yeah, probably in ways most of use will never discover, are we familiar with what goes on in ours? Probably not, I think I am good. I stlill run accross the "I did not know it would do that! Stuff"
As to the Saturn, I took it off the road shortly after that and parked it in the driveway wondering what to do with it. I did not need it, it was excess bagage and the cosmetics went to hell.
So gas went to $4.00 a gallon and I started to look for something to buy that had good gas mileage when I stumbled accross the forlone looking Saturn in my Drive way and I I looked at it thinking, it's mine, it's paid for and I like it and it gets 33 mpg on the open road the PROJECT light went on.
So a couple of months later I had found and solved all the minor irritant problems that time had developed, fixed the broken stuff. That is where I discovered the bad catalytic converter and the overheating problems source (been there before but in far worse of a situation) painted, polished and shined with the interior repaired and the Sun Roof finally taken care of the silly thing looked almost new, ran fine and made me happy again.
Still does, although it turns out I did not get enough clear on it and the clear coat is going again.
And it still amazes me that GM designed it and then ran it into the ground while simultaniously running 3 other brands into the ground too along with international holdings and now is trying to sell cars assembled from parts bins of other manufactures (an age old practice known as badge engineering no matter what the co-orperate name is now coined by some bean counter in marketing) while companies that learned how to manufacture and market from GM are becomming successful and making tons of money while GM is closing plants in order to become profitable. Why is it that picture never made sense to me?
Sorry, O'dark thirty, can't sleep and I ramble nonsence this time of night.
However with as complicated as cars are anymore I could be wrong.
Snip
Dems is strong words!
Said many times I like my Saturn. A wierd set of circumstances which also turns out I have owned it since 1996. A 94 SC2 coupe. More or less 16 years or so. One of the options that it came with is the Lady I am spending the rest of my life with. I even like her too.
I consider myself a passable back yard wrench and have been fortunate enough to build pretty much from junk yard sources some pretty nice cars that have won awards locally, regionally and nationally. Are there better, yup, but mine are good.
And owning this car for as long as I have I am still discovering things on it that I had no clue existed and this twin check engine light is one of them.
The catalytic converter went bad on mine. I really did not know it at the time.
I live in Arizona, it is HOT during the summer. Triple digits is HOT, there are mountains here with 7% grades. Care get hot climbing them at 70 mph. Saturns had a design/parts problem long term with the temperature sensor used to display and monitor temperature. I discovered that YEARS ago.
The bottom line? Depending on the circumstances, the heat gauge has pretty much been a useless contrivance on the dash board. Having owned some cars that did not have heat gauges (when it was hot water squirted out of the radiator) and others that did not have working heat gauges or some form of idiot light, when they were hot water squirted out of the radiator, there reaches a point where you don't worry about how hot the damned gauge says it is, if the water ain't boiling you don't worry.
And I got there with mine. Between the gauge always being suspect and as it turns out the slightly plugged cat cause the engine to get pretty hot climbing long 7% grades at 70 mph or more. Yuh I drive too fast most of the time.
And you ignore it because now I am programed to. It ain't boiling.
So
one July4th I am on my way to Cottonwood AZ on I17 crowding the speed limit all the way and there are two long 7% grades out in the middle of the high desert between where are you and you can't get there from here and it is 120 degrees or there about and the heat gauge is rising and it is beginning to scare me. The higher it gets with out going down, running in the red and it is HOT and I am Hot and as it turns out the CAR is hot and I really did not know it. I pretty much didn't believe it.
Until I hit a really steep section and then
it seems from memory there were so many damned lights that went on from the dash board I thought I had turned on a Christmas Tree. I had no clue some them existed.
No I don't remember them, but it caught my attention out there in the heat and the pukerbrush.
There was a gas station about 10 miles down the road and I figured if I could get there at least I could get to a phone and some help. If this thing was that hot, it was probably toast by now anyway. I looked for signs of steam? None, I turned off the AC (yup it is 120 degrees) I knew the road was pretty much flat for awhile and I was not about to shut things down and look in the middle of no where for fear it would not start, opened all the windows that the moon roof, slowed down to something reasonable and trucked on.
To my surprise the christmast tree indicators turned off and shortly the heat gauge came out of the red and I got to the gas station and pulled off the road. I left the engine running (I still needed to get some where and as long it was running I was gonna try) opened the hood to check for overheating sysmpton, none, no water blowing anywhere, no steam no bubbling sounds made a decision to gamble and continued on. It was a scary moment.
Complicated cars? Oh yeah, probably in ways most of use will never discover, are we familiar with what goes on in ours? Probably not, I think I am good. I stlill run accross the "I did not know it would do that! Stuff"
As to the Saturn, I took it off the road shortly after that and parked it in the driveway wondering what to do with it. I did not need it, it was excess bagage and the cosmetics went to hell.
So gas went to $4.00 a gallon and I started to look for something to buy that had good gas mileage when I stumbled accross the forlone looking Saturn in my Drive way and I I looked at it thinking, it's mine, it's paid for and I like it and it gets 33 mpg on the open road the PROJECT light went on.
So a couple of months later I had found and solved all the minor irritant problems that time had developed, fixed the broken stuff. That is where I discovered the bad catalytic converter and the overheating problems source (been there before but in far worse of a situation) painted, polished and shined with the interior repaired and the Sun Roof finally taken care of the silly thing looked almost new, ran fine and made me happy again.
Still does, although it turns out I did not get enough clear on it and the clear coat is going again.
And it still amazes me that GM designed it and then ran it into the ground while simultaniously running 3 other brands into the ground too along with international holdings and now is trying to sell cars assembled from parts bins of other manufactures (an age old practice known as badge engineering no matter what the co-orperate name is now coined by some bean counter in marketing) while companies that learned how to manufacture and market from GM are becomming successful and making tons of money while GM is closing plants in order to become profitable. Why is it that picture never made sense to me?
Sorry, O'dark thirty, can't sleep and I ramble nonsence this time of night.
#14
08-16-2011, 08:17 PM
welcome back mr t --good to have you.
Unc -- this is one of your worst ramblings to date
but it wouldn't be the same with out ya
(and to think I was THIS close to banning you for irrelevance when you joined..
)
Unc -- this is one of your worst ramblings to date
but it wouldn't be the same with out ya
(and to think I was THIS close to banning you for irrelevance when you joined..
)
#15
08-18-2011, 06:08 AM
Well as promised I am posting current results for my 1997 Saturn SL2.
Wednesday I took dash apart and removed instrument cluster, went thru and replaced bad bulbs. Now all lights seem to function. My SES/MIL lite comes on when key is turned on and turns off after car is started. My air bag comes on flashes like 7 times, which the haynes manual says it should but then it stays illuminated, so I know there is an issue with air bags. I also checked as best I could the gas cap and reseated it. Everything there seems to be ok.
However I am still getting the service with wrench symbol light illuminated.
Since the manual says this means a non emmision issue with car has occured. I can only conclude at this point that it is either because of the airbag, which tonight I plan on replacing computer, since I found a posting that stated that once the airbags have been deployed you need to not only replace airbags but also the computer, to see if this will fix the air bag light, then if the service with wrench is still on then I am going to start looking into the ABS brakes. because again according to manual this light should illuminate upon turning the key on, and well it does not. And I know from using my scan tool that the scan tool could not communicate with ABS system. Fixing one problem at a time and then posting results.
Wednesday I took dash apart and removed instrument cluster, went thru and replaced bad bulbs. Now all lights seem to function. My SES/MIL lite comes on when key is turned on and turns off after car is started. My air bag comes on flashes like 7 times, which the haynes manual says it should but then it stays illuminated, so I know there is an issue with air bags. I also checked as best I could the gas cap and reseated it. Everything there seems to be ok.
However I am still getting the service with wrench symbol light illuminated.
Since the manual says this means a non emmision issue with car has occured. I can only conclude at this point that it is either because of the airbag, which tonight I plan on replacing computer, since I found a posting that stated that once the airbags have been deployed you need to not only replace airbags but also the computer, to see if this will fix the air bag light, then if the service with wrench is still on then I am going to start looking into the ABS brakes. because again according to manual this light should illuminate upon turning the key on, and well it does not. And I know from using my scan tool that the scan tool could not communicate with ABS system. Fixing one problem at a time and then posting results.
#16
08-19-2011, 07:36 AM
Not having the mad money available to buy a scan tool and not being backed into a corner bad enough to actually need one for diagnostics I have not purchased one. Spending a good share of my life in computor controlled machine diagnostics I do though recognise;
1. The reliability of that kind of technology and problems you can get at by just throwing non-compatible parts at the electronics
2. That about 10 years or so ago the on board automotive electronics has standardised quite a bit to OBD-II level (I think that is right) where the Scan Tool is now universal more or less between cars and years. And the prices are comming way down.
I've been lucky to not have problems I could not get around when not having a scan tool but I am sure even as old as I am, I have 7 cars, one of which is a computor converstion of an I-6 street rod the others are late model used except 2 street racers and 2 survivor collector cars all carburated.
Some where along the line it might be a good idea to have a good scan tool in my tool kit.
One proper use at the right time will pay for it in parts I won't have to buy to guess at.
But of course arn't all of our tools like that.
Waiting to see how this turns out. Thanks for the update.
1. The reliability of that kind of technology and problems you can get at by just throwing non-compatible parts at the electronics
2. That about 10 years or so ago the on board automotive electronics has standardised quite a bit to OBD-II level (I think that is right) where the Scan Tool is now universal more or less between cars and years. And the prices are comming way down.
I've been lucky to not have problems I could not get around when not having a scan tool but I am sure even as old as I am, I have 7 cars, one of which is a computor converstion of an I-6 street rod the others are late model used except 2 street racers and 2 survivor collector cars all carburated.
Some where along the line it might be a good idea to have a good scan tool in my tool kit.
One proper use at the right time will pay for it in parts I won't have to buy to guess at.
But of course arn't all of our tools like that.
Waiting to see how this turns out. Thanks for the update.
#17
08-20-2011, 03:11 AM
you could call a gm dealer which used to be a saturn dealer or at least find a gm dealer with former saturn techs that work there -- they will prob be able to provide you a short list of reasons the light may be on
#18
08-29-2011, 09:24 AM
As promised here is the most recent update to the issues at hand.
During the past week I have checked all lights out not only on the dash but also around the perimeter of the car. All light function properly.
I have also repaired the airbag SRS system and it is now functioning normally.
I have gone online with computer system using my SnapOn MT2500 and there are no codes in the SRS, Transmission or Engine.
The MIL light is not illuminated, which is good.
SO with everything now working properly you would think that the lights on the dash would work properly. But that does not seem to be the case.
The service with wrench symbol still comes on shortly after starting the auto. When I am online with the computer it shows the status of that light and it states the light is lit, but I can not find a place to tell me what to check or why the light could be on.
So I am going to go with the idea of calling a Saturn Service area and see what they can tell me about this light. I will keep my eye on this forum site just in case someone has an idea.
During the past week I have checked all lights out not only on the dash but also around the perimeter of the car. All light function properly.
I have also repaired the airbag SRS system and it is now functioning normally.
I have gone online with computer system using my SnapOn MT2500 and there are no codes in the SRS, Transmission or Engine.
The MIL light is not illuminated, which is good.
SO with everything now working properly you would think that the lights on the dash would work properly. But that does not seem to be the case.
The service with wrench symbol still comes on shortly after starting the auto. When I am online with the computer it shows the status of that light and it states the light is lit, but I can not find a place to tell me what to check or why the light could be on.
So I am going to go with the idea of calling a Saturn Service area and see what they can tell me about this light. I will keep my eye on this forum site just in case someone has an idea.
#19
08-30-2011, 11:54 PM
Additional information Gleaned from Software package in front of me at the moment.
I have a hard copy mitchels service manual for a 1994, not sure what year they go up to and might have a Chiltons for a 1997. Out in the garage have not looked.
1997 SL2
A non-emmissions related DTC (Diagnostics Trouble Code) Gawd I hate acronyms will turn on the Service light.
I have no positive definition in this document what a service lite is other than it seems to be a light called; Service Tell Tail or STT or Service Light.
The DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) that triggers this light is called a TYPE C DTC.
My data I am looking at does not identify what a Type C DTC is other than it is a number. Alpha Numeric.
To read this code according to the literature you need a Tech 1 or Tech 2 scan tool and sub menus in the DTC mode
History Menu displays Type C that have failed with in the last 40 Warm-up cycles.
The problem here it also displays others too
The point is it should display a code if there is one.
Last Test Fail menu
Will display a type C code providing it occurred during the current ignition cycle.
Not being familiar with the operation of scan tools leaves me at a disadvantage in that if this information is some how dated I do not know how to transpose it into something current.
Also if the indicator with the wrench on it is the STT or Service Tell Tail lamp than what I have copied out or summerized is valid
I am not sure I can come up with anything more constructive. If you are unable to read any code as a function of History
either there is none to read
or
your scan tool is not detailed enough to read a minority problem.
This information was obtained by asking my software package for diagnostics for a 1997 Saturn SC2.
It is not factory manual detailed, more like a compilation of Chilton manual detailed so I am sure that nuances are not catagorized.
Hope this some how helps.
My data does include diagnostics for problems that do not display codes, but no mention of displaying indicator lamps on the dash board and depends on drivability symptoms to trigger a diagnostics. Being pissed at an errant light bulb was not one of them.
I have a hard copy mitchels service manual for a 1994, not sure what year they go up to and might have a Chiltons for a 1997. Out in the garage have not looked.
1997 SL2
A non-emmissions related DTC (Diagnostics Trouble Code) Gawd I hate acronyms will turn on the Service light.
I have no positive definition in this document what a service lite is other than it seems to be a light called; Service Tell Tail or STT or Service Light.
The DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) that triggers this light is called a TYPE C DTC.
My data I am looking at does not identify what a Type C DTC is other than it is a number. Alpha Numeric.
To read this code according to the literature you need a Tech 1 or Tech 2 scan tool and sub menus in the DTC mode
History Menu displays Type C that have failed with in the last 40 Warm-up cycles.
The problem here it also displays others too
The point is it should display a code if there is one.
Last Test Fail menu
Will display a type C code providing it occurred during the current ignition cycle.
Not being familiar with the operation of scan tools leaves me at a disadvantage in that if this information is some how dated I do not know how to transpose it into something current.
Also if the indicator with the wrench on it is the STT or Service Tell Tail lamp than what I have copied out or summerized is valid
I am not sure I can come up with anything more constructive. If you are unable to read any code as a function of History
either there is none to read
or
your scan tool is not detailed enough to read a minority problem.
This information was obtained by asking my software package for diagnostics for a 1997 Saturn SC2.
It is not factory manual detailed, more like a compilation of Chilton manual detailed so I am sure that nuances are not catagorized.
Hope this some how helps.
My data does include diagnostics for problems that do not display codes, but no mention of displaying indicator lamps on the dash board and depends on drivability symptoms to trigger a diagnostics. Being pissed at an errant light bulb was not one of them.
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