Saturn sc2 2002
#11
02-18-2018, 12:29 AM
If the cylinder misfires enough times it will set the SES on solid and store the P0303.
Flashing SES indicates active misfiring. The fact that it doesn't flash until 45mph on the highway may indeed indicate a fuel restriction.
Before pulling the rail and injectors, check the wiring at the connector for the injector for #3 to rule out the possibility of it being an electrical issue.
Also, before pulling:
On an ice-cold engine, pull all the plugs and make sure they are dry down by the spark gap. Reinstall. Pull the Fuel injector fuse. Crank the engine three or four times. It should not start.
Remove the plugs one at a time. All should be dry w fuel injectors disabled. If #3 is suddenly wet with fuel, the #3 injector is likely not closing all the way, leaking into the cyl when it's supposed to be closed.
It might be sticking closed at different rpm/speeds, leading to the misfire code since nothing combusts in the cyl if there is no charge fed into it. Both are
This can POTENTIALLY be addressed by
Going to the parts store and getting 2 bottles of Techron brand fuel system treatment. It is not inexpensive but based on personal experience and that of others on this forum, it works for cleaning out the injectors.
Drive your gas level down just below a quarter, then add Techron to the tank and fill with 93 Octane of a brand name gas like BP, Sunoco, etc. Between the fuel system cleaners in the higher octane brand name gas and the Techron, if your injectors are less than clear, you should notice a difference between the start of the tank and the end. Repeat with a second Techron and 93 tank if the code persists.
I would think the oil in the plug well would drain into the cyl if the plug was removed. Whatever you do, do NOT try to wick the oil up with the plug removed unless you are 400% positive 0 debris will fall into the spark plug hole while doing so.
I would not think you'd need to pull the valve cover gasket to do this, but the wells are indeed pretty deep,
There is also the possibility that the PCM is seeing a weaker combustion event in #2 than in the other cyls, and is considering it a misfire under certain condiions. If so, we can track down why.
But let's clean out the oil and try that first before going on a wild good chase.
Flashing SES indicates active misfiring. The fact that it doesn't flash until 45mph on the highway may indeed indicate a fuel restriction.
Before pulling the rail and injectors, check the wiring at the connector for the injector for #3 to rule out the possibility of it being an electrical issue.
Also, before pulling:
On an ice-cold engine, pull all the plugs and make sure they are dry down by the spark gap. Reinstall. Pull the Fuel injector fuse. Crank the engine three or four times. It should not start.
Remove the plugs one at a time. All should be dry w fuel injectors disabled. If #3 is suddenly wet with fuel, the #3 injector is likely not closing all the way, leaking into the cyl when it's supposed to be closed.
It might be sticking closed at different rpm/speeds, leading to the misfire code since nothing combusts in the cyl if there is no charge fed into it. Both are
This can POTENTIALLY be addressed by
Going to the parts store and getting 2 bottles of Techron brand fuel system treatment. It is not inexpensive but based on personal experience and that of others on this forum, it works for cleaning out the injectors.
Drive your gas level down just below a quarter, then add Techron to the tank and fill with 93 Octane of a brand name gas like BP, Sunoco, etc. Between the fuel system cleaners in the higher octane brand name gas and the Techron, if your injectors are less than clear, you should notice a difference between the start of the tank and the end. Repeat with a second Techron and 93 tank if the code persists.
I would think the oil in the plug well would drain into the cyl if the plug was removed. Whatever you do, do NOT try to wick the oil up with the plug removed unless you are 400% positive 0 debris will fall into the spark plug hole while doing so.
I would not think you'd need to pull the valve cover gasket to do this, but the wells are indeed pretty deep,
There is also the possibility that the PCM is seeing a weaker combustion event in #2 than in the other cyls, and is considering it a misfire under certain condiions. If so, we can track down why.
But let's clean out the oil and try that first before going on a wild good chase.
Last edited by derf; 03-28-2018 at 01:50 AM.
#12
02-24-2018, 02:11 AM
Spark plug wells dry as a bone ✓
NGK Copper Plugs ✓
New O2 Sensor ✓
All New mounts ✓
Valve cover gasket changed out ✓
It really is running better than I've ever seen it, and this were all problems that needed to be fixed, but none have been the problem yet.
The Engine still shakes (just much less with all new mounts), there is a gas smell, the misfire code (solid and flashing) still plagues me, and a liquid almost like water is coming out of my tail pipe.
It is idling at 800-900, moving back and forth between them. The idle and shaking become worse after it reaches operating temp. If I give it some gas the shaking goes away and as I am accelerating, I don't know if the ideal leaves too.
I have no checked on the injectors yet (waiting for another long weekend), though I have done the Techron and 93 Octane to try and clean the injectors if there is a problem with them. (My ghetto screw driver stethoscope doesn't hear anything wrong with the injectors)
It seems the more I fix it, the more problems crop up. I swear this car will be amazing once I'm done.
NGK Copper Plugs ✓
New O2 Sensor ✓
All New mounts ✓
Valve cover gasket changed out ✓
It really is running better than I've ever seen it, and this were all problems that needed to be fixed, but none have been the problem yet.
The Engine still shakes (just much less with all new mounts), there is a gas smell, the misfire code (solid and flashing) still plagues me, and a liquid almost like water is coming out of my tail pipe.
It is idling at 800-900, moving back and forth between them. The idle and shaking become worse after it reaches operating temp. If I give it some gas the shaking goes away and as I am accelerating, I don't know if the ideal leaves too.
I have no checked on the injectors yet (waiting for another long weekend), though I have done the Techron and 93 Octane to try and clean the injectors if there is a problem with them. (My ghetto screw driver stethoscope doesn't hear anything wrong with the injectors)
It seems the more I fix it, the more problems crop up. I swear this car will be amazing once I'm done.
#13
02-24-2018, 06:19 AM
Have you checked your PCV valve for proper operation? You've addressed some of the issues and seen improvement. Maybe a new PCV valve would help, especially if that's the original. You might also try looking for a vacuum leak with the idle being funky.
#14
02-24-2018, 01:48 PM
Water under the bridge but I hope you used AC Delco Mount for the upper torque axis mount; aftermarket ones just don't cut it in comparison. Obviously, your full swap of mounts helped but is not the root o the issue so let's put on back burner.
Prior to this, you indicated it was idling at 800 rpm. This is the high side of a DOHC A/T car.
You now indicate the idle is wandering between 800 and 900. This is too high and indeed points at the possibility of a vacuum leak (including at the intake manifold around # 2). It also may be that your idle air control valve is gunked up or not functioning correctly. There is a little servo motor in there that modifies the size of an opening through which air passes when the car is near idle rpm to smooth out the performance.
I don't see a throttle body cleaning listed as having being performed. I'd recommend that next.
Remove the air intake ducting at the throttle body after unclipping the battery box lid and disconnecting the line from the valve cover to the air ducting. Actually inspect the ends carefully as these deteriorate easily.
Use throttle body/intake cleaner (NOT CHOKE CLEANER) for the cleaning. Some people like to remove the throttle body entirely; I never have, I just clean it often enough on the car that proper operation is not an issue.
Put a rag underneath the face of the throttle body to catch crap that drains back out. With the engine running, put your hand on the spring loaded throttle control cable mechanism. Rev the engine a bit and start spraying into the throttle body. You will need to work the throttle by hand to keep the engine from stalling. A quickly acquired skill. If it stalls, no big deal -- it will just fight on the next start but WILL start. MIGHT have to feather the pedal but save that as a last resort.. Avoid spraying too much at once to avoid stalling. Once you are confident on the restarting, and all cleaner has burned in the cyls, shut engine off. Hold the throttle plate open and liberally spray the back of the throttle plate, letting it soak a bit between dousings. be sure to do around the very edges of the plate, as any buildup here will restrict throttle plate movement. Tough debris can be removed with a soft toothbrush soaked in the cleaner. The back of the throttle plate should be clean when you are done with it.
The little opening at the bottom of the throttle body face leads to the IAC valve (Idle air control). As stated before, if this is gunked up it will not move/actuate correctly and therefore not deliver the proper amount of air near idle for the engine to run smoothly. Douse the hole and let the crap run back out onto the rag. Wait a few minutes to let it soak a bit, then repeat. Repeat till it rinses back clean.
Hopefully most of the cleaner will have back drained onto the rag. You will struggle to re start he car and may have rto pedal it. Just don't crank for more than 5 sec at a time so you don't kill your starter or run down the battery excessively.
Once fired back up, spray the IAC to get cleaner sucked into it, At idle it will be feeding air into the throttle body, so hitting it with the cleaner will lead to an instant stall if you aren't ready to catch it with the throttle. The IAC can be removed for cleaning. I have never found the need to do so.
I predict that a good bit of the idle wandering should be addressed and it should idle when warmed up arond 700-800 prm IF there are no vac leaks. If nothing else I expect the idle wandering to be addressed if the IAC is suficiently clean and functioning properly.
Clear the codes and take it for a drive, and note
-- how long it takes the SES to turn on solid and at what speed if on the throttle
-- exactly when the SES blinks. Speed related, throttle position related (important), only when on throttle, etc.....
Does the SES blink, then go solid, or go solid, then blink at different times?
Prior to this, you indicated it was idling at 800 rpm. This is the high side of a DOHC A/T car.
You now indicate the idle is wandering between 800 and 900. This is too high and indeed points at the possibility of a vacuum leak (including at the intake manifold around # 2). It also may be that your idle air control valve is gunked up or not functioning correctly. There is a little servo motor in there that modifies the size of an opening through which air passes when the car is near idle rpm to smooth out the performance.
I don't see a throttle body cleaning listed as having being performed. I'd recommend that next.
Remove the air intake ducting at the throttle body after unclipping the battery box lid and disconnecting the line from the valve cover to the air ducting. Actually inspect the ends carefully as these deteriorate easily.
Use throttle body/intake cleaner (NOT CHOKE CLEANER) for the cleaning. Some people like to remove the throttle body entirely; I never have, I just clean it often enough on the car that proper operation is not an issue.
Put a rag underneath the face of the throttle body to catch crap that drains back out. With the engine running, put your hand on the spring loaded throttle control cable mechanism. Rev the engine a bit and start spraying into the throttle body. You will need to work the throttle by hand to keep the engine from stalling. A quickly acquired skill. If it stalls, no big deal -- it will just fight on the next start but WILL start. MIGHT have to feather the pedal but save that as a last resort.. Avoid spraying too much at once to avoid stalling. Once you are confident on the restarting, and all cleaner has burned in the cyls, shut engine off. Hold the throttle plate open and liberally spray the back of the throttle plate, letting it soak a bit between dousings. be sure to do around the very edges of the plate, as any buildup here will restrict throttle plate movement. Tough debris can be removed with a soft toothbrush soaked in the cleaner. The back of the throttle plate should be clean when you are done with it.
The little opening at the bottom of the throttle body face leads to the IAC valve (Idle air control). As stated before, if this is gunked up it will not move/actuate correctly and therefore not deliver the proper amount of air near idle for the engine to run smoothly. Douse the hole and let the crap run back out onto the rag. Wait a few minutes to let it soak a bit, then repeat. Repeat till it rinses back clean.
Hopefully most of the cleaner will have back drained onto the rag. You will struggle to re start he car and may have rto pedal it. Just don't crank for more than 5 sec at a time so you don't kill your starter or run down the battery excessively.
Once fired back up, spray the IAC to get cleaner sucked into it, At idle it will be feeding air into the throttle body, so hitting it with the cleaner will lead to an instant stall if you aren't ready to catch it with the throttle. The IAC can be removed for cleaning. I have never found the need to do so.
I predict that a good bit of the idle wandering should be addressed and it should idle when warmed up arond 700-800 prm IF there are no vac leaks. If nothing else I expect the idle wandering to be addressed if the IAC is suficiently clean and functioning properly.
Clear the codes and take it for a drive, and note
-- how long it takes the SES to turn on solid and at what speed if on the throttle
-- exactly when the SES blinks. Speed related, throttle position related (important), only when on throttle, etc.....
Does the SES blink, then go solid, or go solid, then blink at different times?
#15
03-12-2018, 06:23 PM
After a lot of testing and thinking I have found that it's kind of all over the place. The flashing happens more often than not while I'm on a hill, around 2 RPM or approaching 45 MPH.
The hill (slight, nothing steep) next to my house, I can recreate a misfire every time doing 53MPH at 3.2RPM. What that tells you, I don't know. I also changed the problem cylinder fuel injector, which did nothing for the light.
What I do know:
I have a leak in my intake manifold (Cause that cause the light, no clue.)
I seem to run low on oil in between changes.
If I sit stopped, on, in drive, for a while, I will sometimes get little puffs of smoke out of my exhaust, with a blue tint (Which means I'm burning oil, if I remember correctly). This happens rarely, but seems to me to still be something of possible importance.
Sometimes, when I go to speed up quickly, the car will 'jerk'. Like it just jumped forwards.
I currently set at a wandering idle of 700 to 800 rpm.
Be sides all that, it runs good. I can take hills nicely. It doesn't feel like it has no power. I am awful stumped at what the problem could be.
It seems simple in my head. A misfire means it has to do with something in the four stages.
Something with the fuel, spark, air, or exhaust. Something that is going wrong to cause the misfire. To much fuel, not enough. I think I'd get a code for running to rich if it was anything to do with the air (still, I don't know).
But I'm at a lose to figure it out.
I like the car, and selling it isn't one of my options. Anything else I got would have it's own problems anyways, so I'd be at square one with a different car.
The hill (slight, nothing steep) next to my house, I can recreate a misfire every time doing 53MPH at 3.2RPM. What that tells you, I don't know. I also changed the problem cylinder fuel injector, which did nothing for the light.
What I do know:
I have a leak in my intake manifold (Cause that cause the light, no clue.)
I seem to run low on oil in between changes.
If I sit stopped, on, in drive, for a while, I will sometimes get little puffs of smoke out of my exhaust, with a blue tint (Which means I'm burning oil, if I remember correctly). This happens rarely, but seems to me to still be something of possible importance.
Sometimes, when I go to speed up quickly, the car will 'jerk'. Like it just jumped forwards.
I currently set at a wandering idle of 700 to 800 rpm.
Be sides all that, it runs good. I can take hills nicely. It doesn't feel like it has no power. I am awful stumped at what the problem could be.
It seems simple in my head. A misfire means it has to do with something in the four stages.
Something with the fuel, spark, air, or exhaust. Something that is going wrong to cause the misfire. To much fuel, not enough. I think I'd get a code for running to rich if it was anything to do with the air (still, I don't know).
But I'm at a lose to figure it out.
I like the car, and selling it isn't one of my options. Anything else I got would have it's own problems anyways, so I'd be at square one with a different car.
#16
03-13-2018, 10:20 AM
Where is the intake manifold leak? A vacuum leak near #2 will let unmetered air into the cyl, messing up the air/fuel mix, and causing a misfire.
You are burning oil, either through leaking valve guide seals or oil getting past the oil control rings. To get blue smoke out of the tailpipe it must be burning a huge amount of oil or you have poisoned the catcon from all the oil going through. Pulling plugs after use should revel at least 1 oil soaked plug.
Would have been a lot easier had you divulged above info at the start but water under the bridge
You are burning oil, either through leaking valve guide seals or oil getting past the oil control rings. To get blue smoke out of the tailpipe it must be burning a huge amount of oil or you have poisoned the catcon from all the oil going through. Pulling plugs after use should revel at least 1 oil soaked plug.
Would have been a lot easier had you divulged above info at the start but water under the bridge
Last edited by derf; 03-28-2018 at 01:30 AM.
#17
03-27-2018, 11:49 PM
Welp, I'm taking the head off because there are really only four things it can be and they are under the head. Thank you for all your help, when I figure out which thing is the problem I'll post it so in case anyone else is having the same issue, they can figure it out faster and cheaper than me (Though I don't regret fixing everything I've done so far).
If all else fails, it may be a piston ring, if so, I'm not sure what to do. That is an expensive fix, and not one I have the tools or time to do myself. (I guess I could always get a rebuilt engine)
If all else fails, it may be a piston ring, if so, I'm not sure what to do. That is an expensive fix, and not one I have the tools or time to do myself. (I guess I could always get a rebuilt engine)
#18
03-28-2018, 02:07 AM
Before diving in.....
Do a compression check (remember wide open throttle). Autozone Loan a tool if you need to.
Get up to operating temp. Turn off.
Gingerly remove all 4 plugs before starting.
Remember to pull fuel injector fuse under the hood.
If the test reveals super low compression on 2 compared to the others, it's quite often a partially burned exhaust valve.on the DOHCs.
Rare for 130K, though.
Unlikely to be head gasket as you have not mentioned the milkshake or overheating issues.
Did you happen to spin the engine by hand when you had the valve cover off to ensure you don't have a marginal lifter?
---------
HOW low does the oil get between changes and how many miles is that?
Has it ever gotten 2 quarts or more down?
Did you ever swap out the Bosch O2 for a Denso or even the bad one? Would be interesting to see if the idle still wanders with the old defective one. It did not wander before replacement.
----------------
The wandering idle to me sounds as though it is either
1) an A/F mix issue where the feedback from the front O2 is going rich/lean/rich/lean/rich etc indefinitely or
2) the IAC is not operating correctly, and there is either too much or not enough air getting through. This would end up skewing the A/F ratio, the front O2 would see it in the exhaust,.....
To be honest, I do not know how the IAC position is controlled. Via the PCM of course.
But when the A/F mix gets funky, if the PCM were to mess with both air and fuel at the same time, I'd think that would be a self-fulfilling failure unless it resets the IAC based on assumed airflow and changes the fuel.
Do a compression check (remember wide open throttle). Autozone Loan a tool if you need to.
Get up to operating temp. Turn off.
Gingerly remove all 4 plugs before starting.
Remember to pull fuel injector fuse under the hood.
If the test reveals super low compression on 2 compared to the others, it's quite often a partially burned exhaust valve.on the DOHCs.
Rare for 130K, though.
Unlikely to be head gasket as you have not mentioned the milkshake or overheating issues.
Did you happen to spin the engine by hand when you had the valve cover off to ensure you don't have a marginal lifter?
---------
HOW low does the oil get between changes and how many miles is that?
Has it ever gotten 2 quarts or more down?
Did you ever swap out the Bosch O2 for a Denso or even the bad one? Would be interesting to see if the idle still wanders with the old defective one. It did not wander before replacement.
----------------
The wandering idle to me sounds as though it is either
1) an A/F mix issue where the feedback from the front O2 is going rich/lean/rich/lean/rich etc indefinitely or
2) the IAC is not operating correctly, and there is either too much or not enough air getting through. This would end up skewing the A/F ratio, the front O2 would see it in the exhaust,.....
To be honest, I do not know how the IAC position is controlled. Via the PCM of course.
But when the A/F mix gets funky, if the PCM were to mess with both air and fuel at the same time, I'd think that would be a self-fulfilling failure unless it resets the IAC based on assumed airflow and changes the fuel.
#19
04-01-2018, 10:15 AM
I have not turned it by hand to check that but I can next time I have the chance.
it's the Standard Oil Change mileage so every 3000 miles and I don't know the exact amount I go under but it's low enough for the check engine oil light to come on, so it's quite an amount.
all I know is I have the wandering idle, the sputtering noise in the exhaust which from what I know is usually a Telltale sign of a intake leak somewhere, and the shaking of the engine with the occasional small plumes of blue smoke out the tailpipe. And there are probably 10 different things it could be and it's frustrating because I keep trying and narrowing down the options and it keeps becoming a more complicated and more problematic fix that'll have to do.
but I'm willing to do anything I'm physically capable of doing which is pretty much anything that doesn't involve lifting the engine out or mounting it because I just don't have those tools.
it's the Standard Oil Change mileage so every 3000 miles and I don't know the exact amount I go under but it's low enough for the check engine oil light to come on, so it's quite an amount.
all I know is I have the wandering idle, the sputtering noise in the exhaust which from what I know is usually a Telltale sign of a intake leak somewhere, and the shaking of the engine with the occasional small plumes of blue smoke out the tailpipe. And there are probably 10 different things it could be and it's frustrating because I keep trying and narrowing down the options and it keeps becoming a more complicated and more problematic fix that'll have to do.
but I'm willing to do anything I'm physically capable of doing which is pretty much anything that doesn't involve lifting the engine out or mounting it because I just don't have those tools.
Last edited by Kraiyo; 04-01-2018 at 01:50 PM.
#20
04-01-2018, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by Kraiyo"
it's the Standard Oil Change mileage so every 3000 miles and I don't know the exact amount I go under but it's low enough for the check engine oil light to come on, so it's quite an amount.
The Oil WARNING light comes on when the oil pressure in the engine is insufficient to properly lubricate the engine.
The light can be triggered by oil pump failure.
It can be triggered by a bad sending unit (happens).
Based on your description of losing oil, It is much more likely in your case being triggered by an oil level so low that there isn't enough to keep up with the pump.
This is a serious issue, as it does not take long for the metal on metal contact to damage the engine internals to the point of failure or engine seizing.
If this happens repeatedly, it is likely only a matter of time before failure.
It's only a 4 qt (oil) car. I'm pretty sure the oil light doesn't come on until less than 1 quart remains - and that 1 quart can't feed the pump enough to maintain proper oil pressure,
Was the oil light on before you developed the misfire?.
Do you drive around with the oil light on?
------------------
Please do the compression test before you disassemble the head. If you have a serious compression drop in #2, it may be damage related to the lack of oil.
----------------
I think you may be putting a lot of effort into a seriously damaged engine.
If it is not leaking oil and you are burning that much oil, the oil control rings will need replacing.
You'd want to hone the cylinders and then use oversize pistons and rings (oil control and compression).
Since the head will already be off, the head will need a valve job and the valve guide seals replaced at a minimum. Might as well put in new lifters and replace any valves showing signs of abuse.
You'll need a new cat from all that oil.
The list goes on.......
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not hoping this is the case -- but if it is, I'm trying to help you see what will be involved to fix the known issues.
If you have the engine open, it does not make sense to do just bottom or just top end in these cars, because the oil burning issues arise from the bottom end and top end.
You may just want to pass on repairs and drive it till it fails. But at least keep the oil up or it won't last very long.