Oh, no. I was saying the vice grips/channel locks for the 02 sensor. I didn't know it needed a special tool.
It may be disabled then. Im not sure what else is could be.

 

As I mentioned on one of my earlier post, I was receiving an error code P0420 which I believe is an indication that the catalyst system efficiency is below the threshold. While driving around Cape Coral, I noticed a GM dealer advertising that they are authorized Saturn service shop. I took my VUE there and asked them if they have any means of checking if the O2 sensor is functioning properly. They said yes and that they need to perform a complete diagnostic to determine this. After 2 hours of waiting and $110 invoice I was given an estimate of $3,200 to replace two catalytic converters, a fuel pressure sensor and a computer module. The catalyst part numbers they gave were GM12581992 and GM12581993. I researched these part numbers on line and they looked almost identical.
Prior to purchasing the VUE from a GM dealer, I took it for a test drive and had a mechanic that I used for over 35 years evaluate the vehicle. They performed a 93 point inspection and provided me with few items. While they were performing the inspection, I took numerous photographs both under the hood and under the vehicle. I don’t recall seeing two catalysts under the vehicle when I took the photographs. I came home and reviewed the photographs and there is only one catalyst in my VUE. Further research on line regarding the fuel pressure sensor failure indicated several symptoms and I’m not experiencing any of those symptoms.
Anyone have any ideas as to what I am missing from the GM dealer’s conclusion and repair quote? Except for the grinding noise for few minutes during cold mornings, the VUE runs like a charm. All I am trying to do is to find the cause of this grinding noise.

 

I'd go right back to the stealership and ask the service manager to show me the two catalytic converters if it were me. But then again, I'm just that kind of *******. I don't like people taking advantage of others that have no knowledge of something that is giving them trouble. It sounds to me like you just need to get rid of the Vue if the noise is that concerning. Nobody knows what it is or can tell you, so it's just up to you to live with it or get rid of it. Personally, I'd get rid of it.

 

I blew up on the stealership near me because the kid (he was probably my age) kept popping the clutch trying to move my car.
I don't want to sound like an *******, but its your car. They told you what they think is wrong. It is your choice on what gets done, after all it is YOUR car. Im the type that if they just go ahead and do something without asking, ill tell them to take off the new part and put the old one back in.
If you don't have emission BS, I wouldn't even worry about the cat or o2 sensor until you figure out the grinding noise.
Anyway you can take a video of the noise?
Did you get your mounts checked out?

 

Automobiles have become so overly complex that it is difficult to do an honest and accurate diagnostic over the internet in forums such as this format is. However some very good opinions can be generated.
For this problem, Ruby's last opinion has some serious merit. The first thing he addressed was a reaction to a dealer's work order that seemingly did not address the reason that you were at it.
That is that of the noise in the transmission. Rather than addressing the reason you were there they gave you a world class expensive estimate to make repairs to something that had nothing to do with your question.
And personally you are not the only one who has had that type of dealer response to a question relating to service.
It seems that dealer service has morphed into a money pit of service costs that have little to do with actual functioning of the car. The experience you have had is almost identical to my last visit for Saturn service before dealers disappeared to have my sun roof repaired at an estimate previously given and saved. When arrived or shortly afterwards I was given a repair estimate on what I expected to get a $375.00 repair, instead was asked to sign a $3500.00 repair order that among other things, included windshield wipers.
We had a discussion over it which was neither polite nor repeatable in mixed company.
In that case I did indeed have the repair done, it did also cost twice the original estimate and a second trip before it was complete. A sorry representation of dealer service which has been repeated since then not only to my self on my new Chrysler I bought but to others I know in general.
It makes you wonder why it happens when it does not have to.
You have an Ax to grind with the dealer who gave you that estimate. I would suggest you go grind it with them, but remember your ax to grind is not one of what is the real problem but that of for a reasonable cost (if $100+ dollars is reasonable) it did not address the reason you were there and where exactly are these parts they insist you have and need to replace them.
Now an opinion. First converters can be small and hidden. I am not familiar with the engine in you Vue, but if memory serves me right it might be a Honda engine and an excellent one. And being a V6 the exhaust system snakes around a lot of parts before it heads out and there very well might be a converter up close to the engine that looks like a bump in the exhaust pipe and may not have shown up clearly in your photographs. 'So you need to take a good physical look before you vent your feelings at the dealer that gave you that estimate.
Second opinion.
The transmission in your view is a continuously variable trans mission. I believe. A transmission that was notoriously unreliable and does not have any gears. There is no 1st second and third.
Although the electronics that control the transmission can be set up to make it feel like there was a 1st 2nd and 3rd and 4th while the car runs.
This article gives more than you want to know about continuously variable transmissions printed in 1979, but there are diagrams on about page 6 that gives you an idea of how they can and do work.
SciTech Connect: Continuously variable transmissions: theory and practice
There are no gears.
That said. The transmission used by GM and developed I think jointly with GM and Fiat was used on your car and was the subject of a law suit due failures and reliability along with warranty problems.
Here is one article that covers that subject.
GM settles class-action suit over transmission failures in Saturn Vue and Ion
I think the noise is symptomatic of the transmission and is probably something that is indicating there is a problem with the thing that is going to cost a ton of money to make it go away.
I do not know what to suggest. It is a transmission that if in a car, I would not buy the car. Period. I do not care who makes it, my money will not purchase it.
I think you are basically stuck with the car and have to make the best of it.
If you can figure out how to get rid of it and not cost you a ton of money that is what I would do. Sell it out right or trade it. Make it go away.
If that if is financially possible.
If not, I'd service the transmission which is probably not cheap, but service it anyway to get fresh fluid in it and drive it until it quits. If it does.
Figure out the best solution for it your self. If all it does is make noise when it goes through the motions of pretending to shift gears, it might last a long time.
I dunno,
As far as the other things, if they ain't broke don't bother fixing them. But I am or would be righteously angry enough at given a #3500+ service estimate that did not address the reason I was there that I would publically make a lot of noise just to vent my anger.
The local Chevrolet agency has been good with respect to a customer in selling me parts for my Saturn, but that is all I can say good about them at the moment.
Good Luck

 

my P0420's on S-cars (which this his not) have always been poisoned 02 sensors.
You should be able to see the real time V readings of your front (Bank1 1 Sensor 1) and rear (Bank 1 Sensor 2) O2 sensors on your scan tool. (Bank 1 I think is the manifold with cyl 1)

The rear should be steady near about 0.4V and acts as the policeman to ensure the cat con is truly converting the nasties in the exhaust properly. The front measures real time untreated exhaust and adjusts air/fuel mix to optimize things, one of them being lower emissions. If the rear sensor gets poisoned with crap ("wears out"), the reference voltage will drift away from 0.4V ish and the car's computer will see this as the cat con not doing it's job because there is insufficient O2 present in the post cat con exhaust.

I don't remember which way it drifts. Search the net on how o2 sensors work (not being sarcastic). There are some good articles out there.
________
From your symptoms, it might be that that the cat con is in fact hosed, and the internal material is crumbling into marble sized chunks. It may be that it's not until you get it up through a few shifts and higher rpms that the junk gets blown to the back of the cat an sits there.

MAybe the extended warmup time gets the crumbled pieces hot enough to where they stick in place .

I reall dunno. Just throwing anything and everything out there.

Oh, is the P0420 a hard code or a pending code (does it have a "P" AFTER it on the scanner? If so, the SES light won't come on until it becomes a hard code.

IF the SES bulb check is ok at key on, no one has disconnected it. Usually, if there's an indicator bulb light out on the dash, the "SERVICE" light will illuminate

I did not take he time to read Unc's link about the CVTs and their symptoms but it may be related to that. They are indeed timebombs.

Oh, and if you have a V6, I'm pretty sure you do have 2 cats, 2 upstream 02 sensors, 2 post cat 02 sensors, etc etc and you were only getting an error code for one but they assume if one is bad the other is coming right behind it.

I agree with unc and goalie. If you have no emissions inspections, no driveability issues, and neither cat is glowing red hot when you pull into the garage, then just take good care of the tranny fluid, look into the lawsuit, and keep drivin on down the road.


But please do post back as to whether you're getting a hard code or a pending (P0420p) from your scanner.

The other possibility is that the code may have been stored in a memory location that only a gm tech tool can permanently erase, and every time you erase it from spot b and turn off the car, when you next key on, it repopulates from spot a into spot b as a historical code that isn't setting off the light because it is just that ---historical. Funny How I had to type up that whole whack scenario above for my mind to get to this.

 

Just to address that this problem MIGHT be a bad catalytic converter. I had the catalytic converter (there is only one on my 1994 coupe) fail in such a way that it was partially plugged.
And every time I started the car it sounded like some one threw a handful of gravel at some shield or another under the car. And I never heard another sound until the next time it started.
The car would pass a smog test so I did not take issue with it nor did I get an error code, but my 94 is older than your Vue and has a different level of logic in the computer that runs the thing.
The car also had a tendency to run hot on a long drive.
There were some other issues to deal with before I got to the converter but when I did the material in the converter, half of it had come apart and would rattle when the car started and the partially plug the exhaust pipe causing the car to run hot. But for some strange reason, it was not damaged bad enough to fail a smog test.
I have had two converters fail and one of the symptoms both times was the engine running hot. But only the one on the Saturn rattle and then only when started.

 

I would like to thank goaliemo, Rubehayseed, uncljohn and derf for all your inputs, thoughts and recommendations.
I took couple of actions with respect to my VUE since my last post and I was waiting for the results of those actions before answering you all. While I was browsing the web trying to find answers to the issues on my VUE, I came across another Saturn forum. In that forum, I found an email address of a GM social network (socialmedia@gm.com). They claimed that they will act as a liaison between GM and the forum to get the proper answers and action. Since this is an email, I was able to attach all the pertinent documents and photographs to support my concerns regarding the Michigan GM dealer that I purchased the VUE from and the Cape Coral dealer who gave me an outrageous diagnostics and quote. I received a reply back from the GM social network to tell me that he/she is not a technical person and please email back contact names, telephone numbers and addresses of the dealers. I attached 9 MB of documents and photos that had all the needed information but they were not interested in reviewing the attachments.
Some interesting developments on the grinding noise and the error code P0420 issues on the VUE. As I mentioned, I took it to a GM dealer in Cape Coral and gave them the a written description of symptoms. After a $110.00 diagnostic charge, they gave me the bad news. Over &1750.00 to replace both the catalytic converts and over $1380.00 to replace the fuel pressure sensor and the computer module that controls the fuel pressure system. Well, I walked away from them.

Couple of days later we had a gathering with some retired GM workers at our house. One of them mentioned a small auto mechanic shop in Cape Coral that he dealt with and he felt comfortable with their knowledge and performance. He thought their diagnostics were free. I took the VUE there but they wanted to charge me $60.00 for diagnostic and I didn’t mind. After a test drive, he came back and performed an extensive diagnostic. He said that he found 480 misfire error codes. He deleted them all and took the VUE for a second test drive, came back and rechecked and few misfire codes were back which prompted him to check the spark plugs. When he opened the hood, he thought the engine seemed a bit too hot.
He then came over to me and said that the O2 sensors are performing the way they are supposed to perform and that he didn’t feel that there is anything wrong with the Cat Con’s. Yes the VUE has two Cat Con’s and they are about the size of a small coffee can. He then presented me with couple of spark plugs and associated coils that he removed from the VUE. The sparking side of the plugs looked clean indicating that there was clean ignition but there were evidence of corrosion on the opposite side of the plugs where the metal connects to the porcelain. The coils were burned to a point the outer insulation was gone in several places. The lobby where I was waiting had a full glass wall between the lobby and the shop. Although I was able to see him working on the VUE from the lobby, he took me back into the shop and removed all the remaining plugs and coils while I watched. They were all just as bad or worse. There was also an error code for the fuel pressure issue. He checked the fuel tank cap and said that it is defective and told me if I replace it with an OEM product, the error will go away. He also pointed out to one of the engine mount and said that it needs to be replaced. The rubber bushing was worn out to a point there was metal to metal contact.

I had them replace all the plugs and coils, the engine mount and the fuel cap. All error codes are gone. I no longer have the grinding noise and the SUV is running like brand new for the first time in two years for a cost of under a $1000.00 instead of the $3200.00 estimate by the GM dealer gave me. The error P4020 code was caused by the bad plugs and coils and the worn out engine mount was making the grinding noise.
I was under the impression that the GM dealers have the best of the diagnostic equipment and that the GM trained mechanics are the best qualified mechanics to diagnose and fix GM products. A mechanic from a small auto repair shop, with the help of a scope he had on hand and by listening to the various sounds of the VUE was able to diagnose and zoom in to identify and fix all the issues.

 

The misfiring must have been so bad that the front 02 sensor was all over the place due to raw fuel burning in the exhaust manifold, and eventually triggering the P0420.

I'm mega confused about the misfire codes. IF they were current codes, you should have read them with your scanner. And so should the other mechanics. Additionally, you should have been able to feel the misfiring. Did he show you the codes on a scanner or only tell you? Also, a misfire will cause the check engine light to blink...you've never mentioned that...

I'm thinking he pulled a wire/coil or two, saw the mess, and knew what was going on, told you about misfire codes (could only have been historical if you could not see them) test drove it, confirmed by experience it was missing, and then brought it back and showed you the mess from the arcing where the coil meets the plug.

Not one of the four previous mechanics pulled a plug wire? Sheeeeshh.

Your best weapon, as you learned, against a hole scammers is knowledge. They are much more likely NOT to f with you if you can tell them the first three logical tech ish things you tried BEYOND what the average nobody would think of. The service writer then determines you're too much trouble to f with and doesn't bother trying.

Also: NEVER EVER take your vehicle to a dealership for "trouble" service (non-routine) in the last week of any month. The service department has $$$ goals to meet just like sales does. They'll quote you for a head gasket for a minor leak from your heater core inlet hose that is not visible from above the vehicle to generate the needed revenue to meet their numbers. It's no secret among service depts.

And now it's no secret around here, either (I'm sure some of you already knew anyway).

George --when in the month did you take it in to the GM dealer?

 

Glad to hear you got it fixed and are happy with it, George. This just reinforces my dislike for stealerships. And I'm sorry to say, GM for not taking a valued customer seriously. I won't ever buy another NEW GM product. The only GM product that I'll ever buy again will be another used Saturn.