Hi,

ME:
I know nothing about cars.

THE CAR:
I did this to a 2002 SL.

WHAT I DID:
I borrowed a code reader and managed to see there were 2 codes occurring p0133 and p0410. As I was 'exploring' my new found powers with this code reader I decided I would elect to erase codes.

WHAT I WANT:
I want the codes to come back. I want to attempt to fix the problem indicated by the OBD2 codes.

MY ASSUMPTIONS:
Ordinarily the process of troubleshooting a problem indicated by a code would be:
a)Fix something
b)Clear codes
c)Create conditions which would trigger codes
d)If no codes triggered then done
e)If codes then return to 'a'

MY PROBLEM:
I can't drive the car because it isn't insured or registered. From what I understand I can't get the codes to 'come back' without driving the car around.

MY QUESTION:
Is there a way to get 'what I want' without driving the car around?

POSSIBLE SOLUTION:
Get it insured. Get a travel permit from the DMV. Begin troubleshooting.
<I really would rather not insure a car if can't ensure it will pass the DEQ test.>

Thank you,
EDW

 

You already know the codes that you have. The conditions that trigger those codes are present. The fact that you erased them from the car's short-term memory is of no consequence whatsoever. It's a step you take before you drive the vehicle to see if it is fixed by whatever repair you did. Doesn't matter if you clear it before the repair or after the repair. What matters is if it comes back and sets again after your attempted repair.

At some point you were going to have to clear this before taking it for a drive or starting it in your driveway. Either now or later. Totally doesn't matter.
---------
Depending on the code, it may throw the code just sitting in your driveway idling.

Let's see what we have

P0133 = Oxygen Sensor (O2) Circuit Slow Response (Bank 1, Sensor 1)

Bank 1 sensor 1 is the front oxygen sensor. It is mounted directly in the exhaust manifold before the pre-cut so that it measures raw exhaust gases.
The sensor is sensitive to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. It gives feedback to the car's computer to adjust the fuel to air ratio so that the O2 level in the exhaust is maintained at a specific level. The feedback is constant and the computer is constantly adjusting the mix to keep this optimal.

P0133 sets when the car's computer notices that the rapidly changing front O2 signal is not changing its reading as quickly as it should be..

This usually happens as the sensor ages and gets poisoned and less sensitive to the amount of oxygen present. They usually last about 100,000 miles. The code can also set if the wiring to the sensor is damaged.

If you replace this upstream sensor, do not use a Bosch upstream sensor. Use a denso brand sensor. Just trust me.

P0410=Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System Malfunction.

When the car first starts, air is injected into the exhaust flow for about 30 seconds. This is performed by the secondary air injection system. This can be easy or a pain in the *** to diagnose which part of the system is causing the problem. See the link below to another thread on this forum which contains a link to a troubleshooting video by Richpin.. since you claim you don't know anything about cars, you'll probably need to watch this video about 10 times to understand how the system works and therefore why he is troubleshooting it in the way that he is. I'm confident you can figure it out.

https://www.saturnforum.com/forum/sa...g-video-13898/

You must correct both conditions such that your check engine light is not on when you go for inspection. If it is on, you immediately fail. But I think you already know that.

Also, anytime you clear codes, a series of functional tests are run by the car's computer on many of the car's systems, like the oxygen sensors, the EGR valve, and other things. Some of these tests take a while to run and run only under specific conditions. But we will get to that later. My point was if you correct both of these issues and light does not come back on, you can't just drive straight to the inspection station. But we'll get to that.

I would go after the p 0133 first. It should help improve any roughness in the idle.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. This is a great time for you to dive in on some simple repairs and begin the journey of getting to know your vehicle. A large part of all of this is building confidence. You'll do fine.

 

Thank you for your prompt and thorough response.

I will begin with the upstream O2 sensor, and get a Denso in order to begin troubleshooting the P 0133 code.

It looks like this gentleman is doing the repair I will be doing:
Thank you,
Edw

 

I got the new oxygen sensor and installed it.

I'm now on to the new code.

I watched https://www.saturnforum.com/forum/sa...g-video-13898/ and have a few quick questions.

When checking the electrical am I using a multimeter set to 20 v DC and probing to look for voltage on parts of either the connector or the switch to see if there is power?

When checking for vacuum in the various tubes stated in the video, am I checking for vacuum using a vacuum gauge?

When putting the 10mm bolts back on, do I need to use a torque wrench at some specific torque or can I just re-tighten?

Thank you,
Edw

 

Correct. You are measuring the voltage potential difference between the two pins / terminals. Terminal A with respect to terminal B as your reference. If you are reading negative voltages, that just means that your leads from the meter are connected backwards with respect to the actual connector. Remember it is always a potential difference you are measuring. Be sure that the leads and the connectors and pins are free of corrosion. It's very easy to seemingly get a zero measurement when there is corrosion on the terminals of something.

You can use a vacuum gauge or use your finger as a first order test for the presence of vacuum. When you put your finger over the end of the hose, vacuum should suck your finger against the end of the hose. If there is no vacuum whatsoever, this will not occur. Since the vacuum source is the intake manifold in this case, it should be a pretty strong vacuum. You can likely do a loan a tool from AutoZone or similar for a vacuum gauge.

For these types of connections, you want the nuts to be firm/snug. That means they need to be tight. But not crazy tight for what they're being used for.

In reality, yes, almost every fastener on a vehicle has a specified torque range for it. In the real world, it's the higher torque applications where you want to be sure things are torqued to the proper specifications so that everything is held together that should be. And the fasteners directly involved in ensuring the safety of the driver.

Remember that a loose nut can always be tightened.
Over tightening a nut and breaking off the stud it attaches to cannot be loosened and is often a complete pain in the *** to remedy. In general, small fasteners by definition are not used in high torque applications for exactly this reason. So snug it up and get it just a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny bit tighter until you start to feel resistance. Then stop.

Always keep in mind what application the fastener is being used for. For example, your oil pan drain plug. It needs to be tight enough with its gasket to keep the oil from leaking out while you drive. It just needs to seal the gasket against the bottom of the oil pan while all of the threads are engaged. It does not require 100 foot pounds of torque like a lug nut to do this. So you snug it up, it seals, and you move on with life.

 

Thank you for the information.

I followed Richpin's video using your suggestions and found that the pipe running between the combination valve and the exhaust manifold was constricted due to build up from what I believe to be mostly carbon. The entry point into the exhaust manifold itself was constricted also.

I removed what I could of the carbon from the exhaust manifold entry point. I cleaned the pipe to where there was airflow coming through.

I have a further question. (this isn't related to the initial post, so I'm not sure of the etiquette is to make a new post- let me know and I will correct).

PROBLEM:

Hazards and flashers do not work.

HISTORY:

The hazards and flashers would work intermittently. They would start to work and then shut off. Depending on the positioning of the steering wheel or the 'stick' to the left of the steering wheel (the one which controls left/right flashers) the flashers would come on or shut off.

ASSUMPTION:

There is some loose wire running to that 'stick' I referred to, which I believe is also called a multifunction switch. There is some loose connection running to the hazard switch. I'll need to remove the steering wheel to access these parts. I'll need to disconnect the airbag in order to work on it safely.


I don't really know how to approach this problem, beyond looking to see if a fuse is bad.

Any guidance or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Edw

 

The hazard switch on top of the steering column behind the steering wheel on my 95 SC2 pretty much never gets used. Because of this, corrosion builds up on the contacts of the switch and when I finally do go to use it, I push it in nothing happens. To clear the corrosion, I work It up and down as in activate deactivate at a good pace literally 100 times. This sweeps the corrosion off of the contacts.

I don't remember how the turn signal stick is wired with respect to the hazard switch. They both trigger the flasher unit for different purposes. You may try gently doing the same contact clearing for the turn signal switch. Just remember it's 24 years old. Up off down off up down off. It sounds like corrosion maybe built up on that switch as well. It could of course be a loose connection in either or both cases, but this is much easier to try first and is not at all uncommon for older vehicles.

 

Thank you for your advice.

WHAT I'VE TRIED:

I checked to see if the hazard fuse under the hood was seated properly and had continuity.

I tried moving the hazard switch up and down 100+ times.

Occasionally (once ever 25 times or so) the hazards would turn on.

I ended up disabling the airbag as per these instructions because I didn't want to work around the air bag with it enabled-

https://charm.li/Saturn/2002/SL%20L4...l%20Inflators/

I removed the casing which surrounds the ignition and multifunction switch.
I sprayed contact cleaner around switches and exercised the switches some more.
The hazards would work more frequently, but not the blinkers.

I noticed that I could hear the hazard relay 'click' when I depressed the hazard switch.

I removed the hazard relay to check for continuity.

My analog ohm meter reads a higher reading than what I expected (I expected between 50 and 200- my analog meter reads between 4000 - 6000).


MY ASSUMPTIONS:

I assume I may be reading my multimeter incorrectly, as the values I'm reading don't make much sense to me.

I am going to double-check the readings with a digital multimeter to see if I get similar readings.

If I get readings within the tolerance of 50-200 then I will use jumpers to check to see if I can get the relay to 'actuate' when given power.

I will then retest with the multimeter to see if the switch is actually opening and closing the circuit. (I have heard that a multimeter can be damaged when assessing a circuit for continuity when the circuit has power- if this is true I would probably get one of those 'test lights' in order to check for the switch being opened or closed while receiving power)

This is what information was on the Hazard Relay 01999354 D1130 OMRON.

I believe that, because I've traced the circuit back from the battery, to the hazard fuse under the hood (which was good), and now to the hazard relay (which is unkown), I need to make sure if the hazard relay is good or not. If it is good, then I need to find out if the power that's getting to the pins of the relay is occurring.

I assume in order to do this I need to have the battery connected, multimeter set to DC v 20, with probes inserted into ground and power as according to the labels on the car where the relay is inserted.

If there is power getting to the hazard relay and the hazard relay is good, then I know that the problem is occurring in the multifunctional switch/hazard switch itself.

If this is true, then I'll follow Richpin's video about removing the multifunctional switch and replace it.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO/KNOW:

If there is an identical relay with in the car that I can use to see if the hazard relay is in fact bad or not.

If there is any resource online which would tell me what the schematic and tolerances of the hazard relay (in order to make sure my continuity readings are within manufacturer specifications).

If I need to replace the hazard relay are there any brand recommendations, such as the recommended oxygen sensor being from Denso.

Thank you,

Edw

 

This relay is not just a mechanical closure switch, so traditional testing approaches don't quite work. I got the following from the AI from Google, and it sounds reasonable enough to be true.
_________
Unlike a standard relay, this is a Combination Flasher Module. It contains internal circuitry (logic chips, resistors, and capacitors) to control the timing of your blinkers. Because it is an electronic module rather than a simple mechanical switch, a standard continuity/resistance test between the pins is often inconclusive.

​What you will see on a Multimeter:

• ​Infinite/No Continuity: Most pin combinations will show "OL" (Open Loop) or very high resistance because the internal solid-state components block the low voltage from your meter.
• ​Varying Resistance: If you do get a reading, it will likely be in the thousands of ohms (k$\Omega$) or even millions (M$\Omega$), which doesn't necessarily mean the part is bad—it’s just the nature of the internal circuit.

(Sounds familiar)

​Better Ways to Test This Flasher:

​Since you can't easily check it with an ohm meter, try these steps:

1. ​Check for Power and Ground: Test the socket where the flasher plugs in. Use a test light or voltmeter to ensure the vehicle is actually sending 12V to the module.
2. ​The "Click" Test: If you turn on the hazards and hear a rapid clicking or no clicking at all, but your fuses are good, the internal timing circuit has likely failed.
3. ​Check the Hazard Switch: On many GM vehicles of this era, the hazard switch itself is a common failure point that prevents the flasher from working.

​If your turn signals are staying solid (not blinking) or are completely dead, and you have confirmed the fuses are intact, this module is likely the culprit. (Assuming it means the combo flasher unit )
__________________
There are at least five OEM flashers out there for sale between 20 and $27. However, the fact that your hazard switch worked only once every 25 tries is not a good sign either. When you say it worked, does that mean the hazard lights flashed at a normal interval on and off? If the answer is yes, this does not mean that the flasher unit cannot still be the issue. Do the turn signals light up at all with the stalk in the right position? Also, when you get the hazards to actually work, have you tried turning on the turn signal while the hazards are flashing and then turning the hazards off to see if the turn signal works?

There are a handful of OEM flasher units out there, but they probably haven't been manufactured for 15 years and one of the noted failure modes is internal solder joint issues. Some of the aftermarket parts may make more sense for this. Can't really say. The aftermarket equivalent exists but there are conflicts when you search on it for a Saturn S car.

Hope the above helps.

 

Thank you for all your information.

I bought a flasher relay from NAPA, installed it, now both the hazards and the flashers work.

I appreciate your guidance in solving these problems.


I have on remaining problem which through some research I've concluded may be a worn out torque axis mount.

WHAT I'VE OBSERVED:

At very low RPM (approx. 1k) there is what I would describe as 'aggressive vibration' through out the front end of the car, to the extent I can feel heavy vibration in the steering wheel.

WHAT I'VE DONE:

Based on a prior post of yours, I believe, there was mention of rubber adjustment ***** which control how much 'play' is in the hood when it is closed. If there is 'play' to allow for the hood to vibrate, then this vibration can be felt within the cab of the vehicle.

I checked to see if there was 'play' in the hood and vibration. There was. I adjusted the ***** higher and the hood stopped vibrating.

There still continues to be heavy vibration in the cab.

I checked the spacing between the top of the rubber block and the metal bracket of the torque axis mount. From what I gather if you can stick a pencil in between the rubber block and the metal bracket then the torque axis mount is worn out.

This is a quote from one of your prior posts:

I believe as a result of the test I did my torque axis mount is worn out.

QUESTIONS ABOUT PART SOURCING:

You said in a prior post:

Given that the car I am working on is a 2002 SL1, what would you suggest I do regarding both sourcing an OEM part and hardware?

QUESTION ABOUT REPAIR:

I found this tutorial on replacing the torque axis mount on an S Series Saturn:

https://saturnseries.net/s-tam/

If you have the time, would you confirm this is correct?

Do you have any further suggestions when it comes to this specific repair?

Thank you,
​​​​​​​Edw