EGR valve dilemma for emissions (500 bucks?)
 

my gf has 1999 saturn with about 170K and we knew it needed some stuff like brakes for inspection but turns out the check engine code is supposedly for the EGR valve.

my mechanic is not cheap but he's honest and straight up.

he said he gets them from the dealer so its about 300 bucks then about 150 more for installing and i guess the time to drive the car to clear out the code or run it or whatever they have to do to pass emissions

he said that he may take off the EGR and it really not need it but the code usually is right. so i have a decision to make. i can get the generic EGR right now locally for about 77 bucks. i didnt look where it is on her car but ill assume its not too hard to install. (any advice is appreciated). i've done it on the 95 SS before and it was at the rear of the v8 and not a lot of fun but not the end of the world)

if this doesnt work i realize they wont take the EGR back and we are out 77. but then my question will be what else is causing the CEL to stay on. do you know what would throw an EGR code if not the EGR? he said it is that most of the time

so i dont know what to do. let him fix it for 450 or maybe it wont even take it but if it does work, then we are out 450. if we replace it for 77 and it doesnt work. i guess that means his 450 wouldnt be necessary and he would have to do further diagnostic work. he admitted he didnt want to run up the bill today with further diagnostic

she really doesnt want to look for another car so we were gonna install the front brakes and rotors and fix the muffler hanger and let him do the outer tie rod and alignment. he said if we did that work her bill would be about 700 to 800 to make it legal and we have till june 30 for inspection so this decision needs to be made asap. i just dont know enough about the EGR etc to know if the code really is the code and that is that. or the EGR code could be something else?

also it is burning oil but i'm unsure how much.

thanks

Before going any further

Please provide the diagnostic code for the EGR -- there are several.
Please provide the code as Pxxxx where the x's are numbers.
We'll then look up the exact code and figure out what to do.

Most EGR valves on the S Cars can be cleaned, but 170K is a long time for carbon to build up in there so it may be hard to clean.

Need the Pxxxx code first, please. If you have car, you can go to any Autozone, Advance etc chain store and they will read the codes for free.

You need to find another mechanic. That guy is a con artist. Check this out, is why I'm saying that. Now, I don't know if yours is an SC, SL or SW, but don't really see how that's relevant unless the EGR is different on all of them. https://www.saturnparts.com/catalogs.html

actually that proves he's in the ballpark and I've been going to him over 15 years and he's saved me tons of money. doing stuff free even. plus I do most of my own repairs and he's even helped me out and given me back my own car and said put brakes on that and come back and see me. he knows he will get some of my business in the end


that site you posted listed EGR:


List Price : $290.08
Your Price : $184.20


he would definitely charge list (id think any garage has to in order to make money) and doesn't use aftermarket. my plan is use the autozone one they have in stock for 77.


my plan tonight is get the code and then take it off and see if it needs obvious cleaning and spray it. maybe that would be enough if I got lucky?


do I need to reset the code with my autoxray 7000 or does the car reset itself if the problem is solved. and lets say I do clear the code manually. how far do I need to drive it to get it to settle in to be sure the code isn't there anymore.

3 codes. wonder why he didn't mention the other 2


p0404 p0327 p1599


I never did any knock sensor work and she said she just stalled it recently so that's probably the 1599


I cleaned EGR up a bit. this is how it looked before cleanup. also started it to blow out stuff. then took some pics of other stuff I have no clue what it all means :)


I can get you more stuff if you need off the computer


so do I drive it with the cleaned up EGR and let it reset or clear codes with my machine?

P0404 EGR Circuit Range/Performance

That is one filthy EGR. as are the ports that lead to and from it.
Clean as directed but be sure NOT to bend the pintle


Cleaning the ports it at attaches to seems to have already been done.

Please post pics of the cleaned EGR and ports where it attaches.

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P0327 Knock Sensor Bank 1 Low Input

Sounds like knock sensor is not sending an acceptably high signal to the PCM.
This often means either
1)the sensor is not getting its 5V (I think) feed from the PCM
2)there is a wiring problem somewhere between the knock sensor and he PCM (wiring harness, wiring, etc...a break in the continuity of the circuit.
3)knock sensor is defective.

Find the knock sensor on your vehicle and ensure everything is connected, then.....

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P1599 Engine Stall or Near Stall Detected

So highly informational. Ignore.
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EGR -- you've cleaned. Pintle must move up and down freely without sticking
Knock Sensor -- investigation required

Clearing Codes
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Most of your other I/M inspection readiness tests have already been run and probably passed. Use your scanner to read the status of your I/M monitors.
Unless you have previously cleared codes recently, they should all be "ready" except EGR and possibly "comprehensive" for the knock sensor.

You don't want to clear codes this close to the inspection deadline if the majority of thee monitors already indicate "ready".

The EGR will take at least 50 mi to decide if it is working properly. Check to see if you can get the EGR to "ready" state

TY for the info and video. I cant get to the car until sunday but ill clean per video.


then I wont clear the code but i'm tempted to because to me that's the only way I can be sure it wont come back. once we put on new brakes sunday the car will be driveable again and gf will drive it to work every day. earliest I can get inspection is Friday. she drives at least 30 miles a day.


what i'm asking is how do I know we have driven 'enough' if I don't reset the codes?


the knock sensor sounds beyond my abilities. so ill just have to pay the garage to do it. but maybe I can try to at least give a look

The check engine light will go out after three drive cycles if the code is not detected, but it takes ten drive cycles for the code to disappear and the ready light to come on.

If you reset the MIL, then drive for about 20 minutes between 45 and 65 mph. all the monitors should run and you should be able to pass the smog check. If they don't, then something else is wrong.

Quite intrigued by this one, Keith.

Bearing in mind I am NOT on the attack....

1)If as you state the car's PCM convinces itself after 3 drive cycles that the condition causing the illumination of the CEL/SES (EGR in this case) is no longer present and has not returned, the CEL/SES is turned off by the PCM. This would imply that no hard or pending codes exist. If no hard or pending codes exist and the diag for the EGR has been run and met criteria, why wouldn't the PCM believe itself and set the EGR monitor to ready?

2) Why an extra 7 drive cycles to become "ready"?
3) In fact, why 3 drive cycles to turn off the CEL/SES?
4) Why does it only require 1 drive cycle to indicate the EGR is "ready" after you go in and wipe everything out?

Certainly it becomes a historical code and may take many drive cycles to push it out of the current memory storage area, but I don't see how historical codes have anything to do with readiness indication.

What is the source of the above information?

It seems rather backwards that it would be easier to repair a problem and purposely wipe the slate clean and make only 1 drive cycle necessary for each monitor

vs

repairing the problem, letting the PCM rerun the EGR diag once (which is not a continuous diag), and having everything deemed in spec and ready without any monkeying with a code eraser.....If one good EGR diag from 1 drive cycle is good enough following a full monitor wipe, why 3 or 10 required by a mechanical-only fix.................................

well the pintle was indeed frozen. glad I watched the video. I soaked it and sprayed,. worked until dark cause put new brakes on too. fun times all around. we are taking it on at least 30 mile drive tomorrow doing stuff so hopefully the code clears for the EGR


i'm assuming stuck pintle would throw the code? maybe we got lucky!

Yes indeed. The pintle position is controlled anx monitored via the electronics in the top of the egr housing. If it ain't where it's supposed to be, you get one code or another for the egr. Hopefully you cleaned the ports leading to and the egr. If not, the carbon will eventually find its way into the egr

drove about 35 miles in mixed. still have the code . IM for EGR is ok. i'm assuming if I did clear code it would read not ok. she will drive it another 20 plus miles tomorrow. so at what point do I toss in the towel and spend 77 on new. we anticipate Friday apt for inspection.

ok here's the deal. called my guy and he cannot get it in until Monday anyway. he did agree it should have reset the code if it was fixed. however I told him that if he fixed whatever needed fixed and had to drive it around to reset everything that didn't it make sense that my gf driving 20 to 30 miles a day for 5 more days would reset all the codes to where they need to be OR it would kick them off again. he did agree there


so tonight everything will get reset. i'm assuming my machine will do this. I never did it before lol. he also said knock sensor thing may not be a true code in that something may not be wrong.

If you didn't address the knock sensor issue, then I would EXPECT the CEL to still be ON.

EGR states ready implied the P0404 is gone. If you have multiple codes, any not addressed will keep the light on.

Got to Autozone and get them to read the codes for free -- find our what is LEFT

I cleared all the codes last night. waiting for her to get home to hook up the machine and see if anything came back and the readiness state of things.

all IM set to Ok except for the evap..says INC


no codes at all.


will check it every nite but so far looking good.

look up GM drive cycle. EVAP test has some bizarre conditions that must be met in order for it to be run.

Good to hear.You had no EVAP codes before so it is just a matter of getting the readiness test to run.

Hope the KS code does not come back

evap still at INC even after a week driving


no codes and all else appears ready.


tomorrow we get it inspected.


thanks for all the help. does the KS not coming back mean it is actually ok? how would they have tested this at the garage

prob bad gas set off knock sensor. Fluke.
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Run a complete GM Drive Cycle, now that the CEL is out.
FOLLOW the ENTIRE test IN ORDER.
SKIPPING STEPS, even though those tests may be completed, MAY CAUSE TESTS NOT TO RUN.

================================================== =

Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) Complete System Set Procedure
Diagnostic Instructions
• Perform the Diagnostic System Check - Vehicle prior to using this diagnostic procedure.
• Review Strategy Based Diagnosis for an overview of the diagnostic approach.
• Diagnostic Procedure Instructions provide an overview of each diagnostic category.

Description
The purpose of the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) complete system set procedure is to satisfy the enable criteria necessary to execute all of the I/M readiness diagnostics and complete the drive cycles for those particular diagnostics. When all I/M monitored diagnostic tests are completed, the I/M System Status indicators are set to YES. Perform the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) Complete System Set Procedure if any I/M System Status indicators are set to NO.

I/M Data List
To determine if the I/M readiness diagnostic tests can be run this ignition cycle, use a scan tool to observe the I/M monitor enabled parameters in the I/M Data List.

Conditions for Meeting a Cold Start
• The ignition voltage between 11-18 volts.
• The barometric pressure (BARO) is more than 75 kPa.
• The start-up engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• The start-up intake air temperature (IAT) is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• The difference between the IAT and the ECT is less than or equal to 6°C (10.8°F)
• The ambient air temperature is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• Fuel level is between 15-85 percent
• Without RPO LMG--The fuel alcohol content is less than 15 percent.
• With RPO LMG--The fuel alcohol content is less than 87 percent.

Circuit/System Verification
Review the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Status indicators with a scan tool. All I/M System Status indicators should report YES.

Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Set Procedure
Important: Whenever the ignition is turned ON, ignition positive voltage is supplied to the heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) heaters. After verifying the enable criteria, turn OFF the ignition for approximately 5 minutes to allow the sensors to cool before continuing with the test. Once the engine is started, do NOT turn the engine OFF for the remaining portion of the set procedure.
1. Ensure that the vehicle meets the conditions for a cold start listed above.
⇒ If the evaporative emission (EVAP) I/M System Status indicator displays NO, perform the EVAP Service bay test if available.
⇒ If the EVAP Service bay test is NOT available, it may take up to 6 drive cycles, with up to 17 hours between drive cycles, for the EVAP I/M System Status indicator to transition to YES.
⇒ If the O2S Heater System Status indicator displays NO, ensure that the ignition has been turned OFF for at least 10 hours.
2. Set the vehicle parking brake and ensure the vehicle is in park for automatic transmission or neutral for manual transmission.
3. Turn OFF all accessories; HVAC system, other electrical loads, including aftermarket/add-on equipment, etc.
4. Start and idle the engine for at least 2 minutes and until 65°C (149°F) is achieved.
5. Run the engine for 6.5 minutes within the following conditions:
• MAF parameter between 4-30 g/s
• Engine speed steady between 1000-3000 RPM
6. Return the engine to idle for 1 minute.
7. Apply and hold brake pedal, and shift to Drive for automatic, or apply clutch pedal for manual and operate the vehicle within the following conditions for 2 minutes:
• Depress the accelerator pedal until TP Sensor angle is more than 2 percent.
• MAF signal between 15-30 g/s
• RPM steady between 1200-2000 RPM

Important: Do NOT touch the accelerator pedal during the idle period. A change in TP Sensor angle or an increase in engine speed may invalidate this portion of the test.

8. Release the accelerator pedal and shift the vehicle to Park for automatic, or Neutral and release clutch pedal for manual, and allow the engine to idle for 2 minutes.
9. Quickly depress the accelerator pedal until TP Sensor Angle is more than 8 percent and return to idle, repeat 3 times.
10. Allow engine to idle for at least 2 minutes.
11. Release the parking brake and drive vehicle at 24 km/h (15 mph) or slower for 2 minutes.
12. Continue to drive the vehicle for at least 5.5 miles between 45-112 km/h (28-70 mph) with the vehicle reaching at least 80 km/h (50 mph).
13. Release the accelerator pedal for at least 2 seconds. This will allow the vehicle to enter decel fuel cut-off.
14. Depress the accelerator pedal until the TP Sensor angle is increased 3-20 percent and maintain a safe speed for 1 minute.
15. Safely stop the vehicle, with the engine in drive for automatic or in neutral with the clutch pedal depressed and parking brake applied for manual, idle for 2 minutes.
16. Shift to Park for automatic and apply the parking brake, or neutral and release clutch pedal for manual.

Important: Do NOT disturb the vehicle or turn ON the ignition until told to do so. Disturbing the vehicle may invalidate this portion of the test.

17. Turn OFF the ignition and exit the vehicle. Do NOT disturb the vehicle for 45 minutes.
18. Observe the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Status with a scan tool. All of the I/M System Status indicators should display YES.
⇒ If the EVAP I/M System Status indicator displays NO turn OFF the ignition for 17 hours, ensure that the vehicle meets the conditions for a cold start, and repeat steps 12-18 six more times, or until the EVAP I/M System Status indicator transitions to YES. If the indicator continues to display NO, refer to the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System DTC Table to identify the DTCs that did not run. Follow the Conditions for Running the DTC in order to set the EVAP I/M System Status indicator
⇒ If any of the I/M System Status indicators display NO, refer to the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System DTC Table for the indicator which did not display YES. The I/M System DTC Table identifies the DTCs associated with each I/M System Status Indicator. Follow the Conditions for Running the DTC in order to set the associated status indicator.

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The EVAP test can be a beeatch to run. Sometimes it may take more thn 1 drive cycle.

I've tried to highlight some of the more obscure criteria for the drive cycle that may not be met, especially starting w a full tank of gas!

____________________

Good Luck!

Let us know.

PS: If you have to, fail emissions on purpose.

It makes you legal on the road AND you get 30 days to to address which really just sounds like meeting the drive cycle criteria for ALL of the EVAP tests to run (there are multiple tests and they are tested at different parts of the drive cycle.

well its 100% legal. she picked it up so I didn't get to talk to anyone but it passed everything and I didn't see any extra on the bill for anything emissions related.


muffler strap was 60 but I didn't feel like special ordering it and playing with it. tie rod was cheap and the alignment I forgot about actually.


so his 1100 initial worst case was brought down to 300 for the garage bill and 120 for the parts I did myself


and this wonderful forum saving me on the EGR . i'm sure he just would have cleaned it and it would have passed, but it felt better me solving it and saving her even more money. thanks again


rear brakes are 3 and 4 so I want to do them before winter. been awhile since I did drums though. hope its easy :)

we aim to please

Drum brakes are not that difficult. If you're not sure, just do one side at a time. Don't remove everything from both sides and then realize you don't remember what spring goes where. And if you're going to do that, take your digital camera or phone and take pictures as soon as you pull the drum off. That way, you'll have references either way you do it.