Saturn S Series Sedan SL, SL1, and SL2

cranks but won't start

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  #11  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:15 PM
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Was a sudden drop in power not a slow march to myt crawl home....seemed more like a sudden failure as opposed to a progressive reduction in performance
 
  #12  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:16 PM
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I would try a used icm/coil pack. Buy one from a wrecked car not one with no visible damage. Learned that the hard way back in my Metro days. Don’t buy computer parts from cars with no damage, the reason that they are in the junk yard may be the part you are buying.
 
  #13  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:29 PM
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Any way I can check the ICM before I try and chase one down? I have a multimeter so I can check Voltage, resistance, etc...
 
  #14  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:30 PM
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Crank the engine 5 or 6 times.

Pull several plugs. If you don't smell fuel from the plugs, the injectors are not enabled.

Compression check was coming up next.

If you do have fuel on the plugs.....

Since I will be busy most of the afternoon, there are a few possibilities left.

Just because the crank sensor reads 800 ohms cold does not mean it cannot go open circuit when warm in which case the car stops running because if there is no CKP signal to the PCM, it kills spark and it kills injectors.
If your new CKP seems at spec when putting it in, it may not be functioning properly and therefore still no spark and no fuel .

This phenomenon is quite well known and not just in Saturns. The coil develops discontinuities which break the electrical circuit when the device heats up as the location of the break warms up and the two sides of the break separate.
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Be sure to check the wiring from the back of the fuse box for the CKP fuse to the PCM, both ground and signal I believe go to different pins in the PCM.
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Did you pull the fuse for the ignition control module and inspect it? Is there corrosion on it or inside the slot in the fuse box? You said you had 12 volts going in and nothing going out so it is a possibility that the electrical issue is there. Put the fuse in and out about 10 times to sweep the contacts clean of corrosion and see if that works.
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You should be using the stock NGK plugs specified for this vehicle. Good old copper and gapped properly at 0.040. Sparks across ignition towers are hard to see during the day. You may want to repeat at night.

My gut feeling is it is either ckp/ wire related, ICM fuse or wire related.

These cars are also known to melt terminals on the backside of the fuse boxes. You don't really know what you're going to find until you go to trace the wires things like the ICM.

I think I know of two ICM failures on S cars on this forum since 2004.

One of them was mine.

Not saying they can't fail, but at $200 a pop you don't want to be guessing throwing that part at it.

The key question is whether you are getting fuel in the cylinders and the plugs are getting wet.
 
  #15  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:33 PM
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The ckp signal is a square wave so you will not be able to measure its amplitude using a standard digital multimeter, but you should detect some non-zero change when reading it while someone is cranking the engine. Use jack stands and be safe. Actually read it at the PCM first. If you get nothing trace it backwards
 
  #16  
Old 09-12-2021, 12:43 PM
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Just realized we are in a cross posting situation. Andy is a lifelong experienced mechanic. I have driven S cars since 92. He is a seasoned troubleshooter. I am familiar with the goofy behavior of S cars.

If you choose between us, choose Andy. Hands down

Would still check for gas on the plugs first because if you are not getting any it is possible that spark and fuel are being inhibited which has known causes in these cars.

Be careful when selecting the used ICM. Bring yours with you or look up the part number. It may be printed on the back of the ICM. In 96 or 97 the ICM changed. It has a different number of terminals if nothing else and the older ones will not fit your car nor function properly.
 
  #17  
Old 09-12-2021, 01:03 PM
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P0340 is a cam sensor code, so I defer to Derf about testing a cam sensor on the “S” car. The cam sensor is inferred by the ICM on the four cylinder “L” cars.
 
  #18  
Old 09-12-2021, 04:39 PM
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There is no cam sensor on an S Series engine. That code is triggered by all kinds of different ignition related issues. Non-stock plugs are the most common cause. The random misfire code is worrisome and the p0340 often comes along with misfire codes but not always. How low is the low cylinder?

I will say when my ICM failed, it was an intermittent failure where the car would be running and for a split second it was like the spark stopped and the engine for a split second wasn't running but it was such a short amount of time that went back to normal it was just a WTF just happened? I had an old one on the shelf, popped it in, and that was it, but not after checking a whole bunch of other things.

What is the resistance between the posts across each coil pack?

Also, the coil packs are grounded through the bolts that hold them to the flat on the transmission so you can't test this stuff without it fully attached. You can get that shiny surface on the flat even shinier than it was because you think it's a ground but in reality it's not. That's just a cruel joke by Saturn. At least that's what I've been told by people much more Saturn experienced than I.

Since I'm kind of reaching at this point, are you sure there are no fuses that you pulled and did not put back? Happens to the best of us. Also make sure all of the IGN fuses are good or the car will not start.

 
  #19  
Old 09-12-2021, 04:44 PM
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I should add to be clear that Andy's comment about the cam sensor code being inferred on L cars it's exactly the same on S cars. There is no cam sensor. Also did you ever check for gas in the cylinders after cranking? This is critical for determining which branch of troubleshooting to take
 
  #20  
Old 09-12-2021, 07:35 PM
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Thanks for all the advice...I will work my way through the troubleshooting and let you know what I find. Had to mow the lawn this afternoon so had to put car on back burner. I did get a chance to check several of the wiring connections and everything looked and tested fine. Double checked fuses and they are all good as well. I have another ride for now (wife's other car) so I am not in any rush but I am determined to chase down the problem even if it is for my own satisfaction. I truly appreciate your wisdom and help with this. Stay tuned!
 


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