Crank Problem?
#11
09-27-2013, 02:48 PM
Well mine intermittently does two of these items depending on its mood.
Turn the key and it "cranks" as in i hear the starter turning & and feel the engine spinning but never starts up
Other times it will begin to "crank" then slowly comes to a stop as if the battery is dead. But if this happens and I turn the key back and then foward again it turns over as if there is no issue with battery. Also the battery is brand new as of today and still having the issue...
Turn the key and it "cranks" as in i hear the starter turning & and feel the engine spinning but never starts up
Other times it will begin to "crank" then slowly comes to a stop as if the battery is dead. But if this happens and I turn the key back and then foward again it turns over as if there is no issue with battery. Also the battery is brand new as of today and still having the issue...
#13
09-28-2013, 01:43 PM
In light of your latest post, I am inclined to look at all the connections, both hot and ground. I think I would start with the chassis ground just under the air filter box. Also check both ends of the jumper strap that goes from the engine to the chassis at the front motor mount.
Just a little theory here, but it is possible that you are not getting ignition because the starter is robbing too much power from the circuit and the ignition system is not getting sufficient voltage. This could be due to a bad chassis ground. In this case, when you hit the starter, the engine is well grounded, but if the chassis is not, then the chassis ground begins to "float". Make absolutely sure that the chassis is "clamped" to ground by adequate cables and clean connections.
Then work the hot connections to be sure they are good. The one on the starter will be hard to get to so work the one in the underhood fuse/relay box first. I suspect from your latest description that the problem is more likely on the ground side.
One reason the starter could be turning slow is lack of spark. During the start cycle, the starter motor actually gets a boost from the ignition system. Without ignition, the starter will turn slower.
Do not completely rule out the battery, there is an early failure mode for batteries that involve a manufacturing defect, but I have never seen it manifest itself quite this way, but in theory, you could have an intermittent restricted internal connection. Usually these fail outright but in theory, it could be intermittent.
When this happens, the battery will appear to be fully charged. If it is put on a charger, it will at first look likes it is charging and eventually the chargers green light will come on and the charger will shut off, just like a normal battery. It will measure full voltage with a DVM although it might measure less with an analog volt meter. The internal connection has enough surface area to pass voltage under no load or light load conditions, but when a large load, such as a starter motor, is applied, the connection cannot pass enough current so it gets very hot, its resistance rises through the roof and it drops too much voltage to be of any use. A load test would uncover this unless it is intermittent.
It would also be possible that the internal connection has just enough surface area to usually start the engine, provided the engine starts before the connection gets too hot. Any delay in starting and you have failure to start. The connection cools very rapidly so you might get a successful start within a few seconds (15-30) after failure.
This would be so rare that if your fail to start occurred before the battery was replaced as well as with the new one, then you can probably rule it out.
BTW, there are other manufacturing defects in the battery that can cause the same issues such as the acid chemistry not correct, the metallurgy contaminated during the manufacturing of the plates etc.
Just a little theory here, but it is possible that you are not getting ignition because the starter is robbing too much power from the circuit and the ignition system is not getting sufficient voltage. This could be due to a bad chassis ground. In this case, when you hit the starter, the engine is well grounded, but if the chassis is not, then the chassis ground begins to "float". Make absolutely sure that the chassis is "clamped" to ground by adequate cables and clean connections.
Then work the hot connections to be sure they are good. The one on the starter will be hard to get to so work the one in the underhood fuse/relay box first. I suspect from your latest description that the problem is more likely on the ground side.
One reason the starter could be turning slow is lack of spark. During the start cycle, the starter motor actually gets a boost from the ignition system. Without ignition, the starter will turn slower.
Do not completely rule out the battery, there is an early failure mode for batteries that involve a manufacturing defect, but I have never seen it manifest itself quite this way, but in theory, you could have an intermittent restricted internal connection. Usually these fail outright but in theory, it could be intermittent.
When this happens, the battery will appear to be fully charged. If it is put on a charger, it will at first look likes it is charging and eventually the chargers green light will come on and the charger will shut off, just like a normal battery. It will measure full voltage with a DVM although it might measure less with an analog volt meter. The internal connection has enough surface area to pass voltage under no load or light load conditions, but when a large load, such as a starter motor, is applied, the connection cannot pass enough current so it gets very hot, its resistance rises through the roof and it drops too much voltage to be of any use. A load test would uncover this unless it is intermittent.
It would also be possible that the internal connection has just enough surface area to usually start the engine, provided the engine starts before the connection gets too hot. Any delay in starting and you have failure to start. The connection cools very rapidly so you might get a successful start within a few seconds (15-30) after failure.
This would be so rare that if your fail to start occurred before the battery was replaced as well as with the new one, then you can probably rule it out.
BTW, there are other manufacturing defects in the battery that can cause the same issues such as the acid chemistry not correct, the metallurgy contaminated during the manufacturing of the plates etc.
Last edited by keith; 09-28-2013 at 01:46 PM.
#15
09-30-2013, 06:35 AM
Went through yesterday and checked all connections and cables. Everything looks real good for a car with 180k. No dry rot or anything like that. So tonight I'm pulling the starter and replacing it. Hopefully that will fix it. If not we'll go from there...
#17
10-01-2013, 03:24 PM
We postponed a day or two. My new boss has a lift at his place so we are going to head out there to do it in the next few days. I have a bad feeling there is no correlation between my initial problem and my now bad starter. The starter is probably bad now because in irritation from it not starting I would just hold the key in the start position for lengthy periods of time waiting for it to start. It would just crank over and over. I probably wore it out myself doing that. But hopefully in some amazing luck it might fix it!
I will definitely let you guys know once its complete!
#18
10-10-2013, 04:47 PM
Okay so I have a fun update on the issue for everyone...
1. Was told about a good shop that would change my starter for a good price
2. Decided if it was inexpensive, why not pay someone else
3. Got a price. $90 bucks and have it back same day
4. Sounds good to me
5. Bring it to the shop
6. Get a call saying the key was stuck in the ignition. Has that ever happened to me?
7. No never happened to me
Long Story short, $460 and two days later i'm going to pick up my car which still has the same "no start issue" WTF
they had to install a new ignition switch in my car because "it was bad" and had to get a new key cut from GM
I AM NOT ALLOW TO SAY HOW I FEEL RIGHT NOW ON THIS SITE!
but you get the picture
1. Was told about a good shop that would change my starter for a good price
2. Decided if it was inexpensive, why not pay someone else
3. Got a price. $90 bucks and have it back same day
4. Sounds good to me
5. Bring it to the shop
6. Get a call saying the key was stuck in the ignition. Has that ever happened to me?
7. No never happened to me
Long Story short, $460 and two days later i'm going to pick up my car which still has the same "no start issue" WTF
they had to install a new ignition switch in my car because "it was bad" and had to get a new key cut from GM
I AM NOT ALLOW TO SAY HOW I FEEL RIGHT NOW ON THIS SITE!
but you get the picture
#19
10-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Couple questions. has the "no start issue" gotten worse? Has it gotten more frequent? Did you have the new starter installed?
I see your frustration, intermittent problems are always the hardest to troubleshoot. Once it completely breaks, then it is easy to find the problem but in the meantime, it's no fun.
I see your frustration, intermittent problems are always the hardest to troubleshoot. Once it completely breaks, then it is easy to find the problem but in the meantime, it's no fun.
#20
10-10-2013, 06:31 PM
Did you tell them to go ahead and put in a new switch? If not, I sure would not have paid for it. And it's not that difficult to replace the ignition lock cylinder and key. Just go to you tube. There's a dude there called richpin that has a ton of how to Saturn videos. Sounds like they effed your key cylinder up to me.