What year and model is your s car? And what was his?

 

The pump is not running, I checked in the trunk and had the wife turn on the key and no power was present. My car is a 2001 SC coupe, the guy I refured was the same year and model. Thank you for getting back to me as I am 82 years young and if i have spark , gas , and compression I can make it run, I am missing the spark and gas.

 

I bought a new battery and because removing it may have set the security system in motion, I re set the pass lock many times but the security light stays on as the key is left in the run position. that led me to mabe the PCM or the BCM, I am not much of a computer guy., so I do not know where to go from here.

 

I love this car , but I am a veteran with not a lot of income, so I have to be carful if I want to eat and keep a roof over our heads so you can see why I am very careful how the money is spent. I truly thank you for your help.

 

First of all, thank you for your service to this country. I have what I have in part bec ause of you. Thank you.


Now for some basic questions that you've likely already covered:

Fuel pump fuse?



Since you can make it run with the knowledge in hand, here we go.

THe following is a description of how things SHOULD go.

Do you hear a "click" from the passenger console foot well when going to Key on Engine OFF, then another click after a few seconds?

When you turn the key to on and the car is in cold soak, the PCM or BCM commands the Fuel relay to close. This sends power to the fuel pump in the tank to prime the fuel system,
1st Click is relay engage, 2nd click is relay disengage.
Do you hear any of those clicks?

If not,
there is a little hole next to the fuel pump relay. The relay is located behind the center console kick panel on the passenger side. the inside of the kick panel has the index of what's what. I believe there is a button inside that bypasses the relay and patches 12V straight to the pos wire leading to the pump. W key on engine off, use a paper clip or similar to depress the button in there. you may have to probe for it until you find what to depress. Maybe use something non-conducting. But I don't think Saturn was that stupid
So with KOnEOff, depress the button in there. The pump should run. If it does, the fuel pump relay is bad. Replace it and report back.

We're going to assume that works for the sake of explaining normal operation. SO assuming you have normal fuel pressure at the fuel rail:
When you turn the key to crank:

Passlock II sequence begins
1) The sensor that determines whether the correct key is in the ignition handshakes with the BCM saying "yeah this is the right key".
The BCM goes "cool I'll send a signal to the PCM to ENAbLE the injectors." That's right, ENABLE . uninhibit. The default state for the injectors is turned OFF.
Not a big deal as long as all the handshaking is working. If things get out of sync, or a part fails, the command to enable the injectors never gets to the PCM and the injectors remain inhibited (also possible PCM gets the signal but is fubar'd)
But if all that goes as planned, the injectors are enabled, fuel +spark+air= vroom.

Common failure points:
1) Passlock sensor in ignition switch. Can't talk to BCM, game over (meaning no start)
2) Heavily worn key not reaching the passlock sensor which is deep down in the ignition switch. It's a magnetic field based sensor so if the key does not reach into the magnetic field, the car sees it as a bogus key. Have you switched keys lately or had this problem intermittently before(the no start.)?
3) BCM: The Passlock II security system is an integral part of the BCM and cannot be replaced separately. If it gets out of sync with the ign key sensor, the signal to enable the injectors is never sent. THIS is where the PAsslock II reset proscedure comes in. More on that later)
4 BCM -- firmware or electronics fail): In this case, the BCM receives the correct handshake but never communicates to the PCM to enable the injectors. Or it can not acknowlege the handshake request. Same result=no injectors

When Passlock has been tripped, you see you get the solid security light
By design, the injectors are never enabled so the engine never starts
HOWEVER, the default Passlock II activity does NOT disable spark. It kills fuel. Doesn't need to kill spark

I believe there are 2 modes of Passlock II: one which reacts as if the system is being tamopered with (short term), the other as if it is truly being stolen. The second activates other inhibitions -- I have to go look them up since I haven't had to consult it in about a decade.

I'll be back in a few.

 

Might as well post this:

I cannot stress the importance of
doing EXACTLY what it says
doing NOTHING it doesn't say

The most common user error is to remove the key after the crank attempts OR turning the ignition to OFF right after the crank instead of leaving it in the ON position.
The key must be in the entire time

The Passlock anti-theft system requires the presence of a key in the lock cylinder to enable starting. The lock cylinder contains a stationary Hall effect sensor and a rotating magnet. When the key is turned in the lock cylinder, the magnet creates a signal on the Hall effect sensor. The cylinder then sends a coded signal to the instrument panel cluster (IPC) or body control module BCM. If the IPC/BCM receives the expected coded signal, the IPC/BCM will send a message over serial data to inform the PCM that the vehicle may be started.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To perform a relearn on a Passlock system, make sure there is a fully charged battery in the vehicle. The battery will be used for 30 minutes without the alternator available for charging.

Connect a battery charger to the battery to ensure power is available while programming.

YOUR BATTERY MAY DISCHARGE OVER THE 30 MINUTES TO THE POINT THAT THE RELEARN IS NOT SAVED DUE TO IhSUFFICIENT power to the PCM and BCM.
Attach battery to a running vehicle via jumper cables if you don't have a charger THis has made the difference for several users.

Both the IPC/BCM and PCM must be working and communicating with each other.

1. Turn ignition on.

2. Attempt to start the engine, and then release the key to the “ON” position.

3. Observe the “SECURITY” indicator light. After 10 minutes the “SECURITY” indicator light will turn off.

4. Turn ignition to the “OFF” position, and wait 10 seconds.

5. Attempt to start the engine, and then release the key to the “ON” position.

6. Observe the “SECURITY” indicator light. After 10 minutes the “SECURITY” indicator light will turn off.

7. Turn ignition to the “OFF” position, and wait 10 seconds.

8. Attempt to start the engine, and then release the key to the “ON” position.

9. Observe the “SECURITY” indicator light. After 10 minutes the “SECURITY” indicator light will turn off.

10. Turn ignition to the “OFF” position, and wait 10 seconds.

11. Vehicle has now learned the new password. Start the engine.

12. With a scan tool, clear any trouble codes.

NOTE: For most cars, one 10-minute cycle will be enough for the vehicle to learn the new password. Perform all 3 cycles if the car will not start after 1 cycle. Most trucks will require all 3 cycles for learning the password.

Does your security light go outafter theten minutes? or ever? during attemptedpasslock reset?



ALSO: have you checked for codes at the OBDII diag port? Passlock related codes often show up as communication error codes. But if other codes are present, they may be involved. This is a must. You can do a loan a tool at autozone or similar for a basic obdII scanner. costs nothing (refundable deposit)


What does the mileage read with the key in the on position?

Are there any other telltale lights lit on the dash after bulb check besides oil and charging?


Sorry I'm kinda ADD and all of the place but all the information is here.

Back to search for the long tern passlock mode

 

Here's the blurb I was looking for

After three consecutive failed attempts, PASSLock will enter Long Tamper Mode, disabling the engine for 10 minutes while the Theft System indicator on the instrument panel flashes.

The PASSLock system is designed such that forced rotation normally damages the electronics, immobilizing the vehicle. According to General Motors, should the ignition lock be force rotated, the lock must be replaced in order to operate the vehicle.

Note: The theft deterrent function of the PASSLock System locks out the fuel injectors after the engine is started. However, before a tamper mode engages, the car may run for a few seconds. The engine will then stall.

Is this what you see after three failed start attempts?

This sounds silly, but by confirming passlock works as advertised, we may be able to rule it out.

THe most common source of lost spark + lost fuel at rail is CKP crank position sensor failure. It almost never throws a code. The change in resistance (out of spec) plus the behavior easily condemn or vindicate it.


How did all this start? did it stall while driving? not start in a parking lot when engine was warm? Was security light on or flashing when you could no longer start it? was the no start an intermittent problem before this?


Sorry to pepper you with questions, some of which sound exactly the same, but they are not and will help us sort this out.

I don't know if the long term Passlock mode kills spark, but it it blocks staarting for 10 min, what addl steps are being taken? Ignition system disable? starter disable? If you didn't have the security light before the battery change, this is likely going to be even more of a painin the *** to sort out.

But we have to disengage from security before we can troubleshoot anything else.

 

reluctant to step in derf..........touch the FP relay whilst Mama cranks the car, no clicky.swap the relays with each other.

To go quick and dirty, have mama crank it whist administering starting fluid into the Intake duct at the air cleaner box........if she hits we got a fuel delivery prob, if not it's a ign. issue

In my experience passlock will allow engine to start for about a sec then stalls..........

The above should separate and identify the fault and direct you on what to attack.just my 2 cents.

 

Ok Derf, and Dude, its going to take me a while to do all these tests. I will do them 1 by 1 and report back and thank you for your help. You mention the key binding in the switch, this did happen and now the engine will not even crank. Should I buy a new lock cyl and ignition switch before I do all the tests?

 

For the record, most cars with passlock will run for a few secs, then stall based on The fact that there's a tiny bit of fuel around when you crank even though the injectors are off theoretically. So that is expected behavior.

Is it that the key won't rotate in the cylinder and you can't get it to the crank position or is it that when it gets to the crank position the engine doesn't crank? I think it's the second. If that's the case, the passlock reset will never work. That crank attempt Is a critical step of the process.

I wasn't asking you to touch the fuel relay while your wife tries to jam high current through it. That's what the diagnostic button is for. It is a straight away test for the fuel pump relay. A simple bypass that is safe. I would never recommend anyone a way to test something that is dangerous and if I did it would come with a qualifying statement.

A comment about the key binding was made by GM not me. My comment was about the worn key Not reaching far enough into the sensor area. I think GM is basically saying if the key cylinder gets forced, it probably messes up the alignment of the magnetic sensor such that it will never output the expected signal again.

If you have a fully charged battery and U-turn the key to crank and it does not, check the IGN1 IGN2 IGN3 IGN4 fuses. I can't remember if there are three or four but they are labeled. I think one may be on the kick panel fuse box but most are in the under hood junction box. The car will not start without all of those IGN fuses being intact. Since one of them includes the starter, if that particular one burns out and the car will not crank.

The benefit of replacing the ignition switch is that you get a brand new passlock sensor with it. If you're having binding problems I do not recommend putting the original ignition cylinder into the new ignition switch since you will just be moving your problems forward. People do that so that they don't have to do a passlock reset. That would make no sense in your case since you have to do one anyway.
I believe you can purchase them with keys with the cylinder keyed or with the cylinder blank. You can look up online the correct key blank for your year vehicle and bring an uncut new key, the new lock cylinder your vin, the title, and a picture of the VIN plate close enough to read but far enough to see that it belongs to your Saturn. Then have an automotive locksmith cut you the proper key and key the cylinder so you don't have to have two different keys for the car.

If all of that nonsense is too much of a pain in the ***, buy an ignition switch with a pre keyed cylinder and key. You'll just have a different key for the ignition.

So if it is not a fuse issue, it makes sense for me to replace the entire ignition switch based on your prescription of symptoms plus the issues we are having.

Most of my previous questions shouldn't take too long to answer. There isn't a whole lot to truly test since the vehicle isn't running. Fuel relay bypass and reading codes. The other questions should be easy to answer in a short amount of time. I will be watching this thread throughout the day today to keep the diagnostic process moving