Crank but no start
 

I have a 2000 Saturn sc1 that will crank but not start I also don't have dash light and I believe the fuel pump isn't turning on. I've changed all relays and fuses. I've checked the cps and ignition module, changed spark plugs and now I'm at a lost hoping someone can help me figure this out.please I don't wanna give up on this car

STOP shot gunning parts at it. You're just making it harder to figure out. The first thing you need to do is run codes on it and post them here. You need 4 things in order for your car to start. They are (in no particular order) Spark, fuel, air and compression. And the spark needs to be a nice blue/white color. If it's orange or red looking, it's not strong enough. First things first, pull the codes and post back. We're willing to help, but you're wasting your hard earned cash by just hoping you buy the right replacement part. It MIGHT be as simple as the ECTS, but we won't get into that yet. GET THE CODES READ AND POST THEM, pretty please.

If you don't have an OBD Scanner and don't have access to one, I can help you get the codes. Look at this diagram I'm posting here. L-Series 2.2L/3.0L ? S-Series 1.9L (1995 ? 2005) ? OBD/OBD2 Trouble Codes
If you don't have a scanner, you can bend a paper clip and insert one end into port #8 and the other into port #16. Then, turn the key to the start position, but don't crank it. This will activate your Check Engine Light. You count the number of times the light flashes. Each code will flash 3 times and then go to the next code. For example, a code 33 would be 3 flashes of the light, a pause and 3 more flashes. It will do that three times in a row and then on to the next code. If you get a 12 or 55, that means there are no codes stored. And when to get a 12 or 55, that means the computer is done and you just turn the key off and remove the wire. I hope this helps you. The computer port is under the steering wheel panel as shown in the picture. You MIGHT need a flash light to find it the first time.

When I got the car it didn't have a battery so the codes were reset and with no dash lights working I can't use the paper clip trick. I used that on my Chevy truck. I'm pretty much rebuilding this Saturn using one that has a blown engine so I wanna make sure I fix the issue with the good one but I can't figure out and not being able to run codes isn't helping much

Does it have spark to all plugs? Hold the curvy part of the electrode to a non painted frame area or bracket with AN ELECTRICALLY NON CONDUCTIVE TOOL ( one w rubber insulation) and you should see spark. Please report results.

Moved to S coupe section

Oh __. Pull the fu3l injector fuse while checking for spark

That's a GOOD idea, derf. I'm surprised I didn't suggest that! LMAO Like I even have a clue how anything works anymore. Punkrockgurl606, have you at least TRIED the paper clip trick? You know just for S*&%s and giggles?

Hello????? Echo.....echo.....echo.....

I hope she comes back and lets us know what's up.

Sorry been working over time. I tried the paper clip trick and got bothing because the dashboard is not working bo lights or gauges are working. And no i dont have spark what do i do now?

Since you have no spark, start with the basics. Check your battery cables for good, clean connections. If you're satisfied with that, then you might try replacing the coil and see if it sparks. If not, it could be an ECM problem. I long for the old days of four barrel Carter AFB's and distributors with points and condensers. I could usually figure those out pretty quickly. Damn computers are taking over the world!

Well i did change the ignition module already and wires and the coil packs i did look at the battery connection and it looks good. How can i get the ECM tested to see if thats the problem?

I don't have a clue how to get one tested. Perhaps derf has some information. Or SOMEONE else? Anyone know how to help her out here? I'm one of the old school guys and if I suspect an ECM is bad, I'm going to the junkyard and grabbing another one. That's just me.

But i can take any ECM out of another saturn? Cuz i do have a parts saturn that has just a blown motor that i have been using for parts.

As long as it's the same model. I once took an ECU from a 4-door Mitsubishi Diamante and put it in my Diamante Wagon, even though everyone I talked to told me it wouldn't work. Hell, it fit right in and everything worked great. Never missed a beat and started right up after I installed it and reconnected the battery cables. Sometimes I wish I still had it, even though the 3.0 is a pain in the ass to work on. If you've got the same one, I'd suggest you give it a try. What do you have to lose at this point in the game? Neither one runs anyway. And on the no dash lights, how about swapping the instrument clusters?

Well the thing with the dashlights i think has something to do with the ECM because not even the fuel pump is coming on so i believe its all connected. So i will give a swap to the ECM when i get a chance. Thank you for all your help i appreciate it alot.

2000 and up s cars had a BCM (Body Control Module). That is probably the issue w the dash being messed up, the diag port not working.

a) get batt load tested for free at autozone or similar.

a1)As for the CPS -- how did you test it and what were the results? I believe that interfaces directly to the PCM. Test it INSTALLED. If there is an internal issue it may be flaking out when installed but not when pulled. PITA I know.

The CPS can be within Resistance spec but if it is putting out a distorted signal that the PCM cannot understand, that counts as no signal and

BAD CPS=No SPARK and KILLS FUEL INJECTORS

If you have no spark:

a2) remove the battery terminals, clean the ends of the cables and check for corrosion up the pos cable by cutting the red insulation back a bit. If the cable end is crunchy, replace the cable.

Be sure to clean the surface that the ground wire connects to on the chassis. Poor ground = a big electronic confused mess.

Measure the battery V at rest (cold). should be about 12.6 V
Measure the battery V while cranking and report back.
Have you tried jumpstarting it? Do you get any dash lights when hooked up to jump start?

a3) Are ICM and coils new or used?

b) Coil test: At night pull all plug wires from the coil towers (LABEL THEM FIRST).

Crank engine. You should see a nice arc across the two terminals of each coil pack, alternating between each coil pack.

If you do not see the arcing, the problem is further back in the ignition system.

Are the ICM and coils new or junkyard/used parts? Does the ICM have the identical connections as the one you removed? They are not all interchangeable.

c) Does the chime go off when you leave your headlights on and remove the key?
Does the dome light work? How about the cigarette lighter?

I ask because the power for those three comes from the same distribution point on the interior fuse panel as the fuel pump. Usually referred to as the "F5" issue. Heavy continuous usage of the lighter as a source for phone chargers e.g. overheats the terminals at the junction of these wires and can lead to intermittent or no fuel pump operation.

d) I don't remember where the BCM fuse is, but if it is in the inside fuse panel, it is possible that the 12V that comes straight from the underhood junction box labeled IP BATT is not getting to the interior panel, thud disabling all fused circuits controlled there. Find the IP BATT wire under the hood so you know what color it is coming into the inst panel junct box. with the key in the ON position, measure the IP BATT voltage vs CHASSIS ground -- if it is not battery voltage you have found part of the problem.

e) Passlock II security came to saturn in 2000, so the "security light" status questions are relevant here. The security system may have triggered--problem is you cant see the security light on the dash -- or can you? If so, what state is it in before you get in the car, and what state is it in when you crank the vehicle (Solid or blinking)?

There is a passlock II relearn procedure but you will need to have the battery connected to a charger -- which in your case is likely another idling vehicle hooked up jumpstart style. Turn the radio off.

Here's the link -- I know you can't go by the light status necessarily.
Follow the Passlock II section to the letter or it will not work. Do not remove the key from the ignition during the relearn.

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Sorry -- that was train of thought--how my mind works. Not in the right order.

Correct order to check is:
a0 get batt load tested for free at autozone or similar. doesn't matter if it is new.
a1 remeasure resistance of CPS while installed

a2 (remove clean inspect battery terminals, cables, and chassis ground points, check batt V reconnected, cold and cranking, jumpstart attempt)

a3 pls answer

e) Security system relearn.
Note that the security system is embedded within the BCM and therefore if this is a BCM problem the car will NEVER start without replacing the BCM as the key info is sensed by the ignition switch, sent to the PCM via the BCM.

b) coil test
d) Check for IP BATT V getting to IPJB (Instr Panel Junct box)
c) F5 issue (more rare but can and does happen)

I'd back off on the PCM swapping until we see if we can squeeze some more diagnostic info out of this puppy and determine what works, what doesn't, what is talking to what , and what is not talking to what.

For the record, my intuition says battery, security/BCM, wiring

what year and model are is the blown engine car?

So i had both my batteries tested they are good. Coil is good. I dont know what passcode is because i dont think this car has security i believe previous owners disengaged it i changed the cps when i got the car because thats what my ex believed it was in the first place i have changed all fuses and relays that were in both the fuse box under the hood and in the car i even checked the f2 fuse issue and its perfect not burnt up or shorted out i dont have an f5 on this car and i have no clue what the bcm looks like or where to even look for it

Maybe this link will help. I hope so. Read thru the entire thing. He's pointed out various pins and colors that may help you figure out what's going on with it.

https://www.saturnforum.com/forum/sa...l-module-1813/

a performed (thank you)
a1 not addressed
a2 not addressed
a3 not addressed

e not performed

b Coils are fine does not indicate whether you performed the recommended test or are assuming they are good. Which was it?

d Not performed
c Performed (thank you) . My apologies. F5 is the position for 1st gen S cars; F2 is for 3rd gen.
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By the way, what plugs did you put in, gapped at what? I missed that... Old fashioned NGK coppers (search forum for SOHC version) are what you need to run.
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It is EXTREMELY difficult to assist in the diag of your vehicle if you are not willing to perform the suggested tests to rule out major portions of the vehicle as the problem.

You came to us for help with solving your Saturn issues, but you seem unwilling to move forward very far with the diagnostic steps suggested.

If I had to guess:
1) the IPBATT 12V is not getting to the inside fuse panel and therefore nothing there works at all, including the fuel pump relay
2) if the dash idiot light fuse is getting 12V (or maybe 5, I can't remember), then it is likely a BCM issue.
3) Security system. If BCM is messed, security signal from IGN LIKELY never gets to the PCM and car will never start. Passlock II can be bypassed but not very easily.

And so concludes my contribution to this thread. My thoughts are listed above.

Suggesting things you are unwilling to do for whatever reason is a waste of time for me to type and a waste of time for everyone to read.

New to the Forum and really appreciate any assistance. I'm following this thread and "Saturn will not start" thread. We have a 2002 SC 3 door w/108K miles. We're snow birds and leave the SC garaged in Florida. It ran fine when we left in May 2019 but in Feb 2020 it's just cranking and will not start - we never had this problem. Before I detail symptoms and trouble shooting so far, I wanted to provide any OBD error codes using the 'paper clip' method by jumping 8 and 16. BUT the only ports active are 2,4,5,16 - if port 1 is top left and 16 bottom right.

What do you suggest?
Thanks!

Paperclip method only works up to 1995 OBD1 vehicles. To loan a tool from AutoZone or similar for a code reader. Postcodes as pxxxx where x is a number. Not the description of the code just the code.

Is your car parked anywhere where critters can get to it? Rube knows what I'm thinking

Well, I called AutoZone and Advanced they won'l loan or rent and I'm hesitant to buy. The car is garaged and little geckos run around but that's about it. I need to step away from this for a little then I can send symptoms i.e. gas gauge goes negative after I put 4 gal in. As always, thanks.

Wal-Mart sells a code reader for like $20

Nothing fancy, but it'll give you the basic

Wow, I'll buy one, I thought they were expensive. I'll post with results hopefully today.

Where are you Doug? I have an OBDII code reader. I doubt you're anywhere near where I am, though. First things I'd check is for a blockage in the air box caused by nesting critters. If that's clear, I'd remove a spark plug and check for spark. If that's okay, I'd try a 2 second shot of starting fluid in the intake and see if it fires. If so, you'll know it's a fuel related problem. All GM products after 1996 have to use a code scanner. The paper clip won't work on them.

Went to Harbor Freight and bought a Cen-Tec model 64981. It would not link. Spoke with tech support and they said the unit will not link unless the check engine light is ‘on’. It’s not, so I can’t get codes with this unit. Are there other OBD’s that will?

Thanks!

That sounds bogus as hell

A code reader shut always link if it can read the OBD2 protocol that the vehicle is using to communicate the diagnostics port.

If what they said was true oh, you would never be able to read a car to verify it had no codes. Unless this is some bizarre mutated version of a code reader but I doubt it.

If the service engine soon light is off, or shall I say not on, the reading should come back with no codes.

Did you turn the key to the on position and have the dash lights lit up before you plugged the reader into the port? Vehicle power must be on first so that the PCM can power up and be ready to receive the request from the reader

OK guess I got the runaround from Cen-tech. I plugged the unit into our '06 Acura MDX and it linked fine. Still not linking to the SC. The instructions specifically state Caution do not plug the unit in with the ignition on. Also, the "service" and "service soon" are both lit, this car doesn't have "check engine". I'll see if I can get better tech support from Cen-tech and report back. I'm ready to return this unit.

In the meantime this seems to be a fuel pump/electrical issue. I did check the air intake and it's clear. With the key 'on' i don't hear the fuel pump. The gas gauge is on E and actually goes a bit more negative.when turning key 'on'. I would never store the car for months with out gas and always put Sta-Bil in. But just to be sure I put 4 gal in with no change. The 'gas pump' light stays on with the key on. So far trouble shooting limited to fuses:

Under Hood – all 30A fuses are good – including IP Batt
Inst Panel – Fuel Pump – 10A good, Fuel Pump Relay (12193602) didn’t know how to test this so I swapped with the same (12193602) HVAC relay. No change.

I am having a battery problem - it's not holding a charge and know I need a new one. I keep having to charge it to 70-80% and overnight it drops to 30-40% with nothing 'on'. In FL with hot weather I've found contacts get corroded quickly, i.e., contacts for the power windows. Thinking the ECM may be 'hung-up' I charged the battery to 80% disconnected it and reconnected hoping something would change, it did not.

A quick review - the car ran fine when we left and now it just cranks. The odds of a fuel pump failure seem low. I saw a you tube checking fuel pump voltage in the trunk but not sure if this is valid.

As always, I'm so impressed and thankful that you help me and many others solve Saturn problems. Hats off!

I have to ask.....my cousin Chuck had a good friend they called Derf.....is it possible?

I'm returning the Cen-Tech scanner to Harbor Freight. Can you recommend a decent scanner that for sure links with this '02 SC?

Start with a good battery or you will be chasing your tail. Nothing should be expected to function properly without sufficient power. ECM BCM PCM TCM fuel pump......
The the controllers drive all the modules so if they are not powered properly nothing will work right in general. Actron makes inexpensive scanners. I have one from six or seven years ago that I use on my 97 SC2. You may want to look into something like OBD2 scan tech MX plus it is a Bluetooth dongle that goes on to the diag port and you run an app on your phone. If you get one get the MX plus as they provide enhanced manufacturer specific code support. Not for all vehicles and not for the older ones but in your Ford GM and something else I can't remember. I think it is obdlink. You can Google it. Purchase directly from their website to ensure warranty is valid

Installed new battery - no change. Purchased a different scanner from Northern Tool (Performance Tool, model W2977) same problem "link error". Called the factory but they're Mon-Fri so will have to wait. I've checked the wiring on the DLC (pins 2,4,5, no wire on 16) and they look fine. What's interesting with this scanner it starts off with VPW for a split half second and then walks slowly through the other protocols then a 'link error'. It blows right past VPW doesn't even try to link.

My neighbor does body work at GM dealership. There's a small chance he may be able to borrow a scanner overnight. I'll ask tomorrow Sunday. . .

Only the third generation S cars had bcms. I'm not sure if the diag port is output from there or if it comes from the PCM like it used to in the older s cars. I have schematics and will try to figure out what circuit the fuel pump and diag Port are on, respectively.

If you want to verify there is no fuel to the front of the vehicle crank the engine for 3 or 4 seconds, then cover the fuel rail Schrader valve with a rag and depress the center as you would to let air out of a bike tire. If there is fuel pressure it will soak the rag. If there isn't then there isn't.

Do most of the other electrical functions in the car work properly? Power windows, power door locks, radio dome light. How about the chime if you leave the key in the ignition with your lights on and open the door. Does that work? I am not being sarcastic. There are some particular oddities to s car wiring that are uncovered by asking strange combinations of questions

How many miles on the car?

Have you checked for spark? I know with no fuel vehicle will not run oh, but it is a key troubleshooting step.

If you own a Saturn S car after 1996, do not purchase Chilton manual 62300 expecting to find 3rd generation 2000 through 2002 wiring diagrams of any type at all even though the book is labeled through 2002. It has beautiful schematics up through 95. End of note.

I will do some digging for you

Please hold

OK there are some pertinent schematics at

https://www.justanswer.com/car/1chm1...t-putting.html

Do NOT follow the "online mechanic's directions -- he's inadvertently telling you to short something to ground

I'll post the schematics in here later today. Now you have something to look for.

Basically we want to test the fuel pump. I think there is a little button near the FP relay in the IPJB labeled "test". i think it shunts current straight to the pump as long as you hod it down.
Always seen it, never used it. Do some more reading while I clean house for a while.
.

Thanks Derf.....last night my neighbor used his scanner from work and we got a U1000 data com error, along with blower relay error and right front ABS which I know about. Checked voltage on the DLC pin 4 and 16 and got 13V - shouldn't it be 12V.

Considering the car has sat garaged for 7 months over a hot and humid summer, I'm thinking corroded connectors in the ECM and/or BCM and grounds. I know where the ECM is but can't find where the BCM is located. This seems the easiest next step what do you think? Anything I should be wary of when I pull, clean and replace the modules?

I did take a good look at OBD solutions blue tooth scanners and they're impressive, BUT, no direct tech support only through the Community and I see a lot of software issues so I'm putting that on hold for now and will use my neighbors.

As always, really appreciate the advice!

Just found this you tube on removing the BCM on an '02 SC nice.......
I'll try the ECM first and see what happens.

Apologies for not updating sooner but was away. Well, cleaned up all contacts in the ECM and all grounds under the hood. Did not do the BCM. My neighbor used his scanner again with the same U1000 error. His unit will not drill down to the module level and there's nothing else he can do. I have a ticket open with OBD Link MX+ folks to see if that unit will give module specific info. If so I'll order one and keep you posted.

As always, thanks!
Doug

Never answered any of these.........