Saturn 3 Door Coupes SC1 and SC2

bad oil leak from head gasket?

  #11  
Old 05-25-2018, 10:25 AM
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At idle there should be a pretty good vacuum on the fresh air hose. If you have pressure pulses then one or more cylinders are creating more blowby than the pcv can flow. High vacuum situations at idle cause the most flow through the pcv. WOT situations have no flow through the pcv and crankcase vapors are drafted into the intake piping before the throttle plate. This is how air filters get oil covered on tired engines.
You will need to run a cylinder leak down test when you return home to determine true engine condition. Piston engine aircraft engine condition is determined by leak down testing. Compression test is not a true indicator of wear, it is just a quick test. You have at least one worn or broken compression ring.
 
  #12  
Old 05-25-2018, 02:55 PM
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Oh JOY.

I will choose worn, as I cannot mentally handle one being broken.

There is absolutely NO smoke up to 4k rpm.

Is it possible that the oil control rings are all seized in place, allowing oil into the cylinders and the small additional compression they would otherwise create is enough to explain oil consumption and backwards PCV flow. There is ZERO oil or residue in the air intake, so the pressure doesn't seem strong enough to be venting oil. Not even in vapor form. It just isn't happening.

I do not doubt your diagnosis, I just don't want to mentally accept it.

If this is somehow the wrong PVC, I assume that could have an effect (as in never venting).

I'll give you folks an update on Sun when I get back to Pittsburgh.

Thank you, Andy.

And yes I will perform a leak down test in Pittsburgh.
 

Last edited by derf; 05-26-2018 at 01:33 AM.
  #13  
Old 05-26-2018, 08:55 AM
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Get a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Drain a quart of oil out of the crankcase. Put in the MMO. Drive it for about 100 miles. Do an oil and filter change. See if that helps. The MMO is some pretty damned good stuff. I have a friend in CA that's an ASE certified master mechanic and he swears by it.
 
  #14  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:32 PM
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2 hours into trip. Somewhere in Tennessee. Mental visions of Rube cause me to almost swerve off the road.

Oil lost after 150 mi @ 70 ish mph = 0.25 qt.
Post PCV valve and both hoses replaced.

I'm thinking it could be relieving enough pressure even operating backwards to relieve enough pressure but not push oil. That would also imply that the head gasket oil leak is reduced.

Maybe there was a chunk of gunk or something blocking the orifice from the PCV output to the intake that I could not access during my cleaning but has now dislodged. I will keep driving as is. Not stupid enough to touch it now. we'll check vacuum situation and direction of PCV flow when I get home.

And leak down.

I am so ****ing depressed right now. If I get home in the next 12 hours of my 7 remaining driving hours I'll consider it a victory. I can concentrate just enough to drive right now. I could not last night or I would have left last night. One thing I do not need right now is a car payment. As always I'm eternally grateful for your support, Technical and otherwise. Peace out
 

Last edited by derf; 05-30-2018 at 12:23 PM.
  #15  
Old 05-27-2018, 03:43 PM
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Drive safe!
 
  #16  
Old 05-27-2018, 05:23 PM
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I hope you have a safe trip back, man. Give your wife a big hug and kiss when you get home and then go to bed. You've earned some sleep, man.
 
  #17  
Old 05-28-2018, 07:40 AM
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Ok, I have no short term memory..

The oil was a tad high on the stick at the start..

First 140 mi: 0.25 qt
Last 420 mi including multiple sanity and my driving is too ragged stops (requiring repeated on ramp acceleration) : O.5 qt.

I used several quarts on the way down there, so things have changed for the better.

I short shifted as much as possible to keep the RPM down.

Need to get my car emptied out. Then off to a family picnic where I put on my fake happy mask. Or not. Just too tired.

Drive time: 10 hours
My time: .14.5 hours

Most enjoyable stop:

One glasses lens ejection (not driving), followed by loss of one nosepad into the abyss between the front seat and the console. If you've ever owned a Saturn S Coupe you I know exactly what I mean.

I found three bottle caps, five pens, four gas receipts, $0.17 in change and, after 20 minutes of searching blindly with my hand because you cannot put light and your hand in there at the same time, my nose pad.

Route 19 in West Virginia is an effing Twilight Zone.
 
  #18  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:42 AM
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Yeah, US-19 is weird from time to time... glad to hear you made the trip okay, and that your car is losing less oil than before...
 
  #19  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:54 PM
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Update -- sorta

Well, I finally got some time to do some preliminary testing on the black car. I still need to do a leak down test but here's what I've done (thought the buddy w the lift had one but he doesn't so I need to buy one before I go up there to use the lift.

1) Vacuum: Steadyish, 20 ish (tiny needle quiver) at idle.
Strong throttle blip --> drops to zero, comes right back.

2) PCV system operation:
I'm perplexed, but here's what I found today.
With the new PCV valve and hoses, the air intake now pulls air IN --not terribly strong, but it will hold a post-it to the end of the hose. NOT PUFFIING OUT as it was in Atlanta.

I also know that the PCV system is functional because when I pulled the PCV hose off the intake to measure the vacuum, oil began to mini-hemorrhage at the corner of the valve cover (whose gasket I just had replaced.
As soon as I hooked it back up, the leak stopped. So there is a decent vac in that area.
This is consistent with the fact that I never saw any trace of oil in the air cleaner or ducting. It was not pushing hard enough to push oil OR I was too clueless to put my finger over the hose and feel a slight vac. The puffs I described in Atlanta--might they have been the compression leak, but between them, it was actually pulling air? Sounds kooky as I re read it, but I can't figure out any other reason it would be flowing properly today vs then.

3) Compression Test (Dry & Wet)
As Andy had suspected compression ring issues, I figured I would do a compression test prior to the leakdown so I would have a general idea of what to expect.

The results:
Cyl Dry Wet
1 210 240
2 210 230
3 190 230
4 200 220

I take away from this that the compression rings are significantly worn The service limit is 180 though I have driven on less.
Since the PCV situation doesn't seem to indicate blow by issues so strong that the system can't keep up with it, I'm still going to do the leak down test, with the expectation I will see more or less equal leakage past the rings in all cylinders.

4) Plugs
The plugs I pulled were that nice tan color and there was no evidence whatsoever of being oil soaked.
The car had been sitting since yesterday, so when I pulled the plugs cold (to check for oil fouling, if oil was getting past the valve guide seals, I would see it on the pistons and get a puff of smoke at startup.
I saw neither.


The remaining question:

5) Where is the oil going?
Yet to personally assess the oil leak at the head gasket area, but seeing as how it does not spew oil when I downshift and then get the RPMs up to go up my driveway into the garage, I doubt it is a hemorrhage, and the fact that the PCV system seems to be operating "properly" means the internal pressure on that gasket should be reduced and seeping less oil.
The case may be different at highway speeds for extended amounts of time at higher RPMs.

Which leaves us with the classic stuck oil control ring scenario.

I am convinced that whatever I did to this engine on my 90+ mph 20 min drive to hospice (in vain) mostly happened during that run.
Of course, the compression rings wear with time.
But it burned not 1 drop of oil until after that drive, and if I drive around town keeping the RPMs down, it burns about nothing (though I don't drive it much).

But if the compression rings are now significantly worn AND I froze all the oil control rings on that drive, that would be AN explanation for what is transpiring.

I will
1) assess the oil leak at head gasket
2) perform leak down test
3) do a Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) piston soak and hope for the best. Many S car owners have had success getting some of their oil control rings unfrozen.
Will it make a difference in oil consumption? I hope so. Because if not, I am already at about 3 qts /3000 mi

The car drives as if you'd never know anything was going on. Smooth as a baby's butt.
 
  #20  
Old 06-07-2018, 11:27 PM
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First question, is this the car with one cam one tooth out of time? If not I am not worried about thise compression numbers. Second question, is the car wet clear to the back bumper underneath? If it is pushing oil out of a leaky gasket then it should be wet. If the car is dry then it must be burning it. I am pleased it has quit huffing crankcase pressure. Question three, what weight oil do you run?
 

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