95 SC2 regains most of its former glory
#31
01-16-2021, 09:23 PM
I put the windows down to air out the vehicle a few days ago. I had replaced the passenger window motor about 6 years ago. The regulator was fine and we lubed it and it is going strong.
However when I put the driver window down, there was a massive metallic clunk just as the window near the bottom of its travel inside the door. The window motor still operates fine and at full speed up and down but I'm assuming something is awry with the regulator. Incidentally, dorman is making all kinds of parts for Saturn s series vehicles Including first generation s cars. Like a complete regulator motor assembly for either door. They are the only people making the harmonic dampener I believe. I could not locate another. Luckily they are still making expansion tanks which I think were the same all the way through, because there may be one other company and they probably buy it from Norman or whoever dorman's supplier is.
I have to fix one of the interior door panel mounts on the driver door anyway as the cover does not pull tight in the top corner because of it. At least the inner and outer panels come off in five minutes total.
Do I just need a standard three-arm or 3 jawed pulley polar for the crank pulley? I have never used a pulley puller.
However when I put the driver window down, there was a massive metallic clunk just as the window near the bottom of its travel inside the door. The window motor still operates fine and at full speed up and down but I'm assuming something is awry with the regulator. Incidentally, dorman is making all kinds of parts for Saturn s series vehicles Including first generation s cars. Like a complete regulator motor assembly for either door. They are the only people making the harmonic dampener I believe. I could not locate another. Luckily they are still making expansion tanks which I think were the same all the way through, because there may be one other company and they probably buy it from Norman or whoever dorman's supplier is.
I have to fix one of the interior door panel mounts on the driver door anyway as the cover does not pull tight in the top corner because of it. At least the inner and outer panels come off in five minutes total.
Do I just need a standard three-arm or 3 jawed pulley polar for the crank pulley? I have never used a pulley puller.
#32
01-26-2021, 09:17 PM
95 in for inspection
Took the plunge.
I noticed late last week that the pipe from the resonator to the muffler was bouncing on the rear crossmember. On an S car, this means either the muffler strap has broken and is no longer holding up the exhaust system from the back or the hanger portion of the strap has worked its way out of the hanger attached to the car.
What I found was neither.
The muffler strap was intact around a seemingly non rusted muffler on the outside. But the strap was badly misshapen between the muffler and the hanger on the car. The hanger is about 2-in wide preformed steel with a bend in it where it goes into the hanger. Normally this is a right angle. It was approximately 45° in that area. Not right at that preformed angle but in front of it. That muffler has been on the car for a long long time and has not rusted on the outside due to lack of mileage put on the car.
My theory is the following: (Andy rolls eyes)
Physics tells me that either a sharp downward force or the weight of the muffler bent that very stiff part of the strap. Since the tailpipe barely protrudes from under the car and it is unlikely that you could back into something that is just a tiny bit taller than the top of the muffler without hitting the bumper first, I'm going with the weight of the muffler theory.
Why would the muffler be heavier than normal?
A muffler breaking down internally would not add weight. The innards of the cat con may have come apart and been blown back into the resonator and or muffler. Or something else is in there.
I let the vehicle get up to operating temperature, then let it idle uninterrupted for 2 hours. after 2 hours, I was still getting steam, not white smoke and no smell of coolant, coming out of the tailpipe. When I put my hand in the exhaust stream, it was still quite cool as opposed to burning my hand as I would expect.
The presence of continuous steam after such a long time indicates to me there is a significant water source in the exhaust system. I know mufflers have a drainage hole but nothing comes out of it. Yes, combustion products include water vapor, but not this much.
So my assumption is that there is an obstruction in the exhaust, likely in the resonator or muffler. To bend the bracket that badly, I'm leaning towards the muffler. Though it could be a collapsed inner pipe somewhere.
I am guessing that the material restricting the exhaust flow is absorbing most of the heat which is why the exhaust is cool.
I am also guessing that the sharp popping exhaust sound which is not present until the vehicle warms up and is not heard up by the engine or the cat and is not in sync with the firing of the cylinders is related to either the material shifting and or the boiling of the water into steam wherever it happens to be sitting.
I dropped the vehicle off with a replacement muffler and a strap. I already had a new spare front pipe that is shared between the 97 and 95.
I can get a resonator and cat for under $275 in two days.
I didn't try to tap a hole in the resonator piping right behind the cat or right in front of it because everything is severely rusted and I feared I would create a hole that turned into a giant unthreadable hole that would make my car extremely loud which is not good when you're riding around with an uninspected vehicle.
My initial back pressure measurement at the O2 bung detected none, but if it was not a good seal or the gauge is defective from the factory, that might explain the one piece of evidence that doesn't match all of this.
For once, I don't believe this theory is all that far-fetched. Considering how many years this vehicle has ran like crap in the same way, that's been a lot of time to collect material in the muffler, including water. We are talking at least 10 years. If the exhaust is cool and I am still seeing steam, who knows how much water is trapped and how much crap is causing a restriction?
The end of the day passed with no contact from my mechanic. Don't know if it did not get worked on or if progress has been made and he has taken it to his buddy with a functional tailpipe tester.
I want to know but then again I'm sure he doesn't want me asking 14 questions right now so I will let him do his thing. I'm expecting him after he pulls the muffler off to tell me to replace the resonator. If the cat was bad, it would not have passed inspection all those years before I gave it to my nephew, although it may be bad now. Time will tell.
I want the old muffler if for no other reason than to put a sawzall to it and see what has been plaguing this vehicle in addition to my ignorance. Which hopefully, for this issue, is coming to an end. Stay tuned. Loosely.
Still have the replacement balancer to try.
If none of this is correct, then I will drop the black car engine in the white car after replacing the entire exhaust except the down pipe.or maybe the downpipe too because then it would look nice and shiny for a picture.
I'm sure the visualization of me swapping an engine is comical, just like the amount of time I have spent on and off trying to sort out this issue.
All put together, I'd say it has been six to nine months actual troubleshooting time over 10 years. Something you would likely solve in less than a day.
But I needed to learn everything along the way to get to where I am. If I actually am anywhere further along. Even if it doesn't turn out to be the solution, I've learned almost as much from not finding the problem.
I noticed late last week that the pipe from the resonator to the muffler was bouncing on the rear crossmember. On an S car, this means either the muffler strap has broken and is no longer holding up the exhaust system from the back or the hanger portion of the strap has worked its way out of the hanger attached to the car.
What I found was neither.
The muffler strap was intact around a seemingly non rusted muffler on the outside. But the strap was badly misshapen between the muffler and the hanger on the car. The hanger is about 2-in wide preformed steel with a bend in it where it goes into the hanger. Normally this is a right angle. It was approximately 45° in that area. Not right at that preformed angle but in front of it. That muffler has been on the car for a long long time and has not rusted on the outside due to lack of mileage put on the car.
My theory is the following: (Andy rolls eyes)
Physics tells me that either a sharp downward force or the weight of the muffler bent that very stiff part of the strap. Since the tailpipe barely protrudes from under the car and it is unlikely that you could back into something that is just a tiny bit taller than the top of the muffler without hitting the bumper first, I'm going with the weight of the muffler theory.
Why would the muffler be heavier than normal?
A muffler breaking down internally would not add weight. The innards of the cat con may have come apart and been blown back into the resonator and or muffler. Or something else is in there.
I let the vehicle get up to operating temperature, then let it idle uninterrupted for 2 hours. after 2 hours, I was still getting steam, not white smoke and no smell of coolant, coming out of the tailpipe. When I put my hand in the exhaust stream, it was still quite cool as opposed to burning my hand as I would expect.
The presence of continuous steam after such a long time indicates to me there is a significant water source in the exhaust system. I know mufflers have a drainage hole but nothing comes out of it. Yes, combustion products include water vapor, but not this much.
So my assumption is that there is an obstruction in the exhaust, likely in the resonator or muffler. To bend the bracket that badly, I'm leaning towards the muffler. Though it could be a collapsed inner pipe somewhere.
I am guessing that the material restricting the exhaust flow is absorbing most of the heat which is why the exhaust is cool.
I am also guessing that the sharp popping exhaust sound which is not present until the vehicle warms up and is not heard up by the engine or the cat and is not in sync with the firing of the cylinders is related to either the material shifting and or the boiling of the water into steam wherever it happens to be sitting.
I dropped the vehicle off with a replacement muffler and a strap. I already had a new spare front pipe that is shared between the 97 and 95.
I can get a resonator and cat for under $275 in two days.
I didn't try to tap a hole in the resonator piping right behind the cat or right in front of it because everything is severely rusted and I feared I would create a hole that turned into a giant unthreadable hole that would make my car extremely loud which is not good when you're riding around with an uninspected vehicle.
My initial back pressure measurement at the O2 bung detected none, but if it was not a good seal or the gauge is defective from the factory, that might explain the one piece of evidence that doesn't match all of this.
For once, I don't believe this theory is all that far-fetched. Considering how many years this vehicle has ran like crap in the same way, that's been a lot of time to collect material in the muffler, including water. We are talking at least 10 years. If the exhaust is cool and I am still seeing steam, who knows how much water is trapped and how much crap is causing a restriction?
The end of the day passed with no contact from my mechanic. Don't know if it did not get worked on or if progress has been made and he has taken it to his buddy with a functional tailpipe tester.
I want to know but then again I'm sure he doesn't want me asking 14 questions right now so I will let him do his thing. I'm expecting him after he pulls the muffler off to tell me to replace the resonator. If the cat was bad, it would not have passed inspection all those years before I gave it to my nephew, although it may be bad now. Time will tell.
I want the old muffler if for no other reason than to put a sawzall to it and see what has been plaguing this vehicle in addition to my ignorance. Which hopefully, for this issue, is coming to an end. Stay tuned. Loosely.
Still have the replacement balancer to try.
If none of this is correct, then I will drop the black car engine in the white car after replacing the entire exhaust except the down pipe.or maybe the downpipe too because then it would look nice and shiny for a picture.
I'm sure the visualization of me swapping an engine is comical, just like the amount of time I have spent on and off trying to sort out this issue.
All put together, I'd say it has been six to nine months actual troubleshooting time over 10 years. Something you would likely solve in less than a day.
But I needed to learn everything along the way to get to where I am. If I actually am anywhere further along. Even if it doesn't turn out to be the solution, I've learned almost as much from not finding the problem.
Last edited by derf; 01-26-2021 at 09:36 PM.
#34
01-27-2021, 05:50 AM
That's a bolt in, right?
If not, someone needs to teach me how to weld.
That's also on the bucket list along with an engine swap and an engine tear down and rebuild.
The whole bucket list thing is kind of ironic because I've never been passionate enough about too many things until quite recently. Now there are actually a handful of things I would really like to do before I go. Not all car related.
Man, I'm jacking my own thread.
Too early in the morning for that.
If not, someone needs to teach me how to weld.
That's also on the bucket list along with an engine swap and an engine tear down and rebuild.
The whole bucket list thing is kind of ironic because I've never been passionate enough about too many things until quite recently. Now there are actually a handful of things I would really like to do before I go. Not all car related.
Man, I'm jacking my own thread.
Too early in the morning for that.
#35
01-27-2021, 09:51 PM
Muffler full of crap.
Tiny hole in flex pipe lead to zero back pressure measurement from O2 bung and apparently affected O2 measurements.
New downpipe, muffler, and strap. Forgot how freely that engine winds up. Performance significantly improved, small residual vibration I am attributing to aftermarket mounts.
Alignment time.
High pitched noise is sound reflected off hood
Car only running a couple minutes so still steaming out exhaust.
Hard to believe that missing sound is from the oil on the #2 and #3 plugs. Will have to see how much oil this goes through. Maybe it is raining in there....
A more detailed inspection of the ignition system is warranted.
Thank you all again.
Like time through an hourglass, these are the Days of our Lives....
Tiny hole in flex pipe lead to zero back pressure measurement from O2 bung and apparently affected O2 measurements.
New downpipe, muffler, and strap. Forgot how freely that engine winds up. Performance significantly improved, small residual vibration I am attributing to aftermarket mounts.
Alignment time.
High pitched noise is sound reflected off hood
Car only running a couple minutes so still steaming out exhaust.
Hard to believe that missing sound is from the oil on the #2 and #3 plugs. Will have to see how much oil this goes through. Maybe it is raining in there....
A more detailed inspection of the ignition system is warranted.
Thank you all again.
Like time through an hourglass, these are the Days of our Lives....
Last edited by derf; 01-27-2021 at 09:59 PM.
#37
01-28-2021, 02:36 PM
I've never had an exhaust issue with any vehicle that was not blatantly obvious to me. That said, I do not doubt that this would have been blatantly obvious to a professional, although the very experienced folks that have been inspecting this vehicle never considered this in discussions with me. But then again I never straight up asked them to sort it out. It was a very personal quest.
But that is all in the past now. I think I got the other 20 horsepower back which is important when you only have 124 total. I would think if the oil number two and number three issue was bad enough to cause misfires at idle that it would be dumping even more oil at higher RPMs but it revs pretty smoothly. I will have to get somebody to stand by the exhaust pipe while I put my foot down in neutral somewhat.
The car has no real damage to the exterior and therefore prep work to be repainted should be minimal. Thought about leaving it as a survivor car but it deserves more than that. I can always have the head rebuilt or learn to do it myself with the help of somebody with experience and have a take 300 times as long but come out with the knowledge. Valve issues with only 50k on a rebuild seems like someone effed up but then again I still need to do the leak down to see if the oil is leaking around the valves when they are closed or only when they are open. S car valve damage is almost always burned exhaust valves but you never know.
The car is bone stock and although a turbo would be fun, I think I will leave it stock, get it repainted, retitled as classic and start showing up at classic car meets. Should get interesting. My wife saw a well maintained Fiero on the way to work with a classic plate on it. I'm thinking about making mine LLO 1995 but that is a real possible plate number so it will probably have to be 1995 LLO or 95 LLO. Nothing goofy like derfs 95 SC2. I would love to keep the black car engine as a spare but I have more or less promised the entire vehicle to someone so since I am a man of my word, the vehicle will leave with an engine.
I suspect I will never own a mid to late sixties 442 or Chevelle. A 72 Cutlass supreme forest green with black landau roof with a rocket 350 would satisfy me as well. Enough power to handle perfectly in a straight line.
The turbo in my 2.0 Audi Quattro is quite sufficient. I plan to die with that car as well as the white car.
There's a certain satisfaction to making quality things last.
But that is all in the past now. I think I got the other 20 horsepower back which is important when you only have 124 total. I would think if the oil number two and number three issue was bad enough to cause misfires at idle that it would be dumping even more oil at higher RPMs but it revs pretty smoothly. I will have to get somebody to stand by the exhaust pipe while I put my foot down in neutral somewhat.
The car has no real damage to the exterior and therefore prep work to be repainted should be minimal. Thought about leaving it as a survivor car but it deserves more than that. I can always have the head rebuilt or learn to do it myself with the help of somebody with experience and have a take 300 times as long but come out with the knowledge. Valve issues with only 50k on a rebuild seems like someone effed up but then again I still need to do the leak down to see if the oil is leaking around the valves when they are closed or only when they are open. S car valve damage is almost always burned exhaust valves but you never know.
The car is bone stock and although a turbo would be fun, I think I will leave it stock, get it repainted, retitled as classic and start showing up at classic car meets. Should get interesting. My wife saw a well maintained Fiero on the way to work with a classic plate on it. I'm thinking about making mine LLO 1995 but that is a real possible plate number so it will probably have to be 1995 LLO or 95 LLO. Nothing goofy like derfs 95 SC2. I would love to keep the black car engine as a spare but I have more or less promised the entire vehicle to someone so since I am a man of my word, the vehicle will leave with an engine.
I suspect I will never own a mid to late sixties 442 or Chevelle. A 72 Cutlass supreme forest green with black landau roof with a rocket 350 would satisfy me as well. Enough power to handle perfectly in a straight line.
The turbo in my 2.0 Audi Quattro is quite sufficient. I plan to die with that car as well as the white car.
There's a certain satisfaction to making quality things last.
Last edited by derf; 01-28-2021 at 05:13 PM.
#38
03-28-2021, 05:09 PM
Couldn't leave well enough alone.
Couldn't handle not checking the crank pulley/balancer.
Finally got around to it today.
Expecting my dewalt 20V cordless impact gun to be pounding on it for 10 min based on the experience of many others, I put the best fitting socket on there and hit the trigger.
The bolt came out without a SINGLE HAMMER of the gun. Couldn't have more than 60 to 70 ft lbs of torque on it. Considering how much it vibrates, it is no surprise that the bolt loosened from 149 ft lbs.
Everyone says you don't need a pulley puller. They just fall off S car cranks. Mine is on there.
-----------------------------------
But alas, I have noted what I believe to be a rather damning yet possibly explanatory situation.
I can rotate the crank pulley a TINY TINY bit relative to the Woodruff key in the crank. Less than 2 degrees but it moves. Not good, I suspect. Obviously, don't know if it is the key or the keyway or the pulley slot that is worn. But from the bolt being that loose for who knows how long, something seems wrecked.
I know this scenario can be nasty for timing belts and therefore timing. Can a timing chain get stretched enough from this to cause a static timing issue between the crank and the cams?
I was really hoping to be able to swap this into the black car and give someone a reliable vehicle without putting any time messing w the engine.
I can just put the bolt back in and leave as is. It does run pretty damn well. That just means it's swap time. Now
-----------------------------------
Oh, and I got a nice bit of oil out the crank bolt hole. Haven't decided if that means I need a new front/seal. There was a bit of oil below the hole on the outside but nothing to write home about. Been there for years.
The end of the crank has a threaded hole. if there is no opening in the crank that could pass oil to the threaded hole, how is it getting in there? Meaning I guess there is. Oil seeping past an external crank seal would not get into the threaded part of the crank, would it?
All input welcome (like I have to type that)
Finally got around to it today.
Expecting my dewalt 20V cordless impact gun to be pounding on it for 10 min based on the experience of many others, I put the best fitting socket on there and hit the trigger.
The bolt came out without a SINGLE HAMMER of the gun. Couldn't have more than 60 to 70 ft lbs of torque on it. Considering how much it vibrates, it is no surprise that the bolt loosened from 149 ft lbs.
Everyone says you don't need a pulley puller. They just fall off S car cranks. Mine is on there.
-----------------------------------
But alas, I have noted what I believe to be a rather damning yet possibly explanatory situation.
I can rotate the crank pulley a TINY TINY bit relative to the Woodruff key in the crank. Less than 2 degrees but it moves. Not good, I suspect. Obviously, don't know if it is the key or the keyway or the pulley slot that is worn. But from the bolt being that loose for who knows how long, something seems wrecked.
I know this scenario can be nasty for timing belts and therefore timing. Can a timing chain get stretched enough from this to cause a static timing issue between the crank and the cams?
I was really hoping to be able to swap this into the black car and give someone a reliable vehicle without putting any time messing w the engine.
I can just put the bolt back in and leave as is. It does run pretty damn well. That just means it's swap time. Now
-----------------------------------
Oh, and I got a nice bit of oil out the crank bolt hole. Haven't decided if that means I need a new front/seal. There was a bit of oil below the hole on the outside but nothing to write home about. Been there for years.
The end of the crank has a threaded hole. if there is no opening in the crank that could pass oil to the threaded hole, how is it getting in there? Meaning I guess there is. Oil seeping past an external crank seal would not get into the threaded part of the crank, would it?
All input welcome (like I have to type that)
#40
03-30-2021, 10:15 PM
Thank you, sir. I threw it back in and torqued it down before reading the above to get it out of the garage. Haven't driven since but now know what to do if it leaks.
I know the Key/Keyslot wear thing is not worth dealing with in any other way than to let it be, though I bought the damn replacement pulley so i might as well put it on. The car vibrates a tad differently with the pulley bolt torqued properly.
Per my earlier question, could that wear (key/keyslot) be perturbing the timing between the crank sprocket and the crank/timing chain stretching?
I have no idea if the keyway is worn all the way in there -- all I can see is the pulley relative to the crank.
Just asking as I like to understand things, even those I cannot fix so that I have the knowledge going forward to take less than 12 years on and off to complete a root cause determination of a problem.
I know the Key/Keyslot wear thing is not worth dealing with in any other way than to let it be, though I bought the damn replacement pulley so i might as well put it on. The car vibrates a tad differently with the pulley bolt torqued properly.
Per my earlier question, could that wear (key/keyslot) be perturbing the timing between the crank sprocket and the crank/timing chain stretching?
I have no idea if the keyway is worn all the way in there -- all I can see is the pulley relative to the crank.
Just asking as I like to understand things, even those I cannot fix so that I have the knowledge going forward to take less than 12 years on and off to complete a root cause determination of a problem.