Not sure where to start...thumping noise
 

Got this nice car two days ago...actually yesterday...but when I test drove it on dry pavement, all was good.

Last night I was driving it home in snow and when I would turn right, i can hear and feel clunk clunk clunk from passenger side...nephew also said he felt it under his feet (passenger).

Before I start digging in and checking things, anyone know where I should start?

Usually does it when Im in first gear (5 speed manual) and turning corner...

Thanks for the help =)

Well, in addition to what I said about the motor mounts, you may want to check you lower control arms, ball joints, tie rod ends, struts and cv joints. It could be any one of those or something else entirely. I'm not a mechanic, so don't take my word for it. See what some of the other guys say first.

There are a lot of sources for clunking noises on Front Wheel Drive, East West mounting of engines in high mileage cars.
But with the symptom of;
Turning and clunking
it has generally been on my cars, a CV joint. It might help to get some one give you a second opinion who can also hear and feel it. I usually take care of that by replacing a half shaft with a rebuilt one from a reputable parts house such as NAPA or CarQuest. If you have the tools and the knowledge to do it yourself it is just a dirty miserable job that is doable.
It is not hard.

Sorry for posting this here and there but since I already had people commenting on my first post "never had a saturn before', I thought id put this problem there.

I have done axles on my 1988 Audi Quattro 5000 S, 1993 Chevy Cavalier (z24), and the 89 Honda Accord I ended up junking. Once you change one, you pretty much can do them all...(better not say that, as all cars are different)

But yes I have the tools if needed.

Hello to Choover82 ...

First off, I'm not there with you, so I may be totally off base - but from what you describe you lead me first to the CV joints, and secondly to the top and bottom motor mounts on the passenger side of the car. Since you have done CV axles before on other cars, you know what that entails ....

Ill replace the top mount..appears to be worn out.

Let us know if that takes care of it, okay?

Actually havent done this yet. The mount has good rubber on the sides, but theres a gap in the top area...not sure if thats a sign of worn out or not.

Also havent felt it since the snow is off the road...

Maybe you just had snow accumulating under the car and it was hitting the drive pulleys and belt.

My personal comment on motor mounts, having changed them my self when I have deemed it required, on a front wheel drive car with East West Engine orientation there are usually a hand full of mounts stategically located in the damndest places you can imagin. Generally only one of them is visible when you open the hood.
When I have had to change them, they were BROKEN. And easy to diagnose. And believe me getting to some mounts was an excersize in frustration. And in a few cases, the BROKEN mount did in deed cause some form of knocking noise but not always.
However when backed into a corner into changing a mount BECAUSE the damned transmission was a piece of crap the transmission shop invariably pointed to the only VISIBLE mount which usually after many miles (and I have driven front wheel drive cars up to 300,000 miles) they appear stretched. They have stated that the ONLY VISIBLE mount needed to be changed and gave some cobbed up reason for it thus trapping you into changing it, I found no particular change in the way the car performed or ran. Other than the transmission which was broken now worked. Sometimes up to almost the end of the warentee interval.
I alway found it fascinating and more than irritating that it was funny out of all the mounts in the engine and transmission area, the only one needed changing was the VISIBLE one.
But like I said. When I personally changed a motor mount? It was broken! And believe me, it was the hard to get to and impossible to see ones that were generally broken. The visible ones lasted the life of the car. (Unless I had a transmission go bad and I don't do front wheel drive transmissions)

Start by posting the year, make & model of car your talking about.

Its in my signature.

The noise as you described it, unless you can actually see a broken motor mount, then in my opinion, it sounds like a CV Joint.

But its not doing it on the dry pavement, just on snow...like the wheel is hopping (doubt it is though)

But its not doing it on the dry pavement, just on snow...like the wheel is hopping (doubt it is though)
============================
Well, from a failure analysis standpoint it still sounds to me like a CV joint. I don't have snow where I live unless I want to drive to it. Something that influenced me to move to where I live. But, if snow is to be some form of a key to the problem then maybe there is no problem.
Or if there is it has something to do with the brakes.
WHY?
These things have some form of a pretend limited slip function. On mine you can turn it on an off, a 94 SC2. A lot of new cars have the same function called different names, traction control comes to mind. I don't care, I am old school. Limited slip is a function of the differential. The pretend ones use computor controlled application of the brakes to act as either a traction device (one wheel slips so the brakes are applied to that wheel while the other tries to drive) or under acceleration the same thing more or less. It is possible I guess that if what ever the thing is called is sensing a differential speed or rpm difference between the two front wheels or maybe all four, don't know myself, and that what you are feeling is the brakes being applied rappidly to control wheel spin or speed on slippery slopes. And the klunking sound is either normal ( I had a Lincoln that did that in the rain, I hated that Lincoln) or something actually is loose in the front suspension so when this does happen on snow it rattles. My Saturn is in good shape. I have worked on cars that most everything was loose and shot so it does happen. The point is though if you really do not think it is a CV joint because it happens on the snow, maybe this anti-lock or traction control function controlled by the computor popping individual wheel brakes is causing it on slippery surfaces. I can turn mine off. I don't know on yours. My new Chrysler has something like that too, but I can not turn it off. But if you can turn it off, do it and see if the problem goes away.

Im assuming this pretend limited slip thing has something to deal with the diff pin, but thats besides the point.

When my wheel hub went bad (around 105 k miles) there was an intermittent knock that only occurred when turning or in certian conditions, until the point of it almost failing. Then when I tried to press the bearing out, the hub broke and sheared off a piece of metal.

also, I have wheel hop when turning all the time, even more in snow and rain. however, the wheel was cut hard. How hard are you turning when this occurs?

a weak motor mount can contribute, there is one behind the passenger wheel that can be worn out, its behind plastic shields so its hidden. If you search on youtube you can find videos on how to see if the mount is worn.
(the pics are where all the mounts are, aftermarket mounts in place. Theres other mounts under the battery tray and in-between the transmission and cradle - which there isnt a picture of)
thats my book worth 2 cents

Octavious said:
Im assuming this pretend limited slip thing has something to deal with the diff pin, but thats besides the point.
=============================
No, not really and that is why I am bringing it up.
A locking differential in it 3 or 4 forms (except one) senses mechanicaly one tire spinning faster and out of control. Then through a mechancial action applies clutches or some form of mechanical locking action so the spinning side gets coupled to the side that is not spinng (the natural function of a differential to allow 2 different axle shaft speeds for the purpose of being able to turn corners ) because when this happens the drive power gets transferred to the spinning wheel and the non-spinning wheel is the one that needs the drive.

The pretend units use a speed sensor at the wheel(s) that a computor monitors. And when it senses one wheel spinning faster than it should, it applies the brake to it to stop the spinning. The assumption being it has no traction so if the brake it applied then the power is again applied to the non-spinning wheel through the differential to the non spinning wheel.
Each method has plus and minuses. The locking differential axle works best as a rear axle. It does not care what is going on elsewhere, is heavy, bulky and self contained and only has one function. To stop wheel spin for acceleration purposes.
The method of using a brake system works also for front wheel drive in that the differential is part of a transaxle which has a space premium problem. Gets tricky to have it work as part of a front wheel drive lay out with out feed back to the steering wheel and because it is computor controlled at the brake, can also be used as an-anti lock brake system where if one wheel locks up under braking thus affecting the ability to steer, it will unlock the brake to the locked up wheel freeing it up so you can steer.
It does this by pulsing the brakes. So if the brakes are pulsing it is possible to feel it through the car depending on the traction available and how well it works.
Early systems that worked that way caused an awful lot of brake problems that resulted in slamming and banging noises in the car or just out and out brake failure problems.
My Lincoln ( damn that thing) slammed and banged like mad with an awful bouncing of the brake pedal when it functioned. When it was wet and road was slippery and I was driving too fast it did it all the time.
Later on I owned a Dodge Caravan that had the same system and it was prone to failure which causes excessive brake pedal pressure to stop the thing.
The Lincoln I bought new and got rid of it at 60,000 miles because the bumper to bumper warrenty ran out and I was not about to pay to fix the damned thing. The Dodge I bought from a junk yard for $500.00 and it had 300,000 miles on it. Even with the anti-lock system failing, I could stop it. You just had to push harder on the pedal.
My Saturn, a 94 has a button on the consul I think that is where it is, that turns the system on and off. I looked at a Camero that was about the same vintage that worked that way too that had controlls to turn it on and off. I think the lable indicates it is a limited slip function rather than anti-loc brakes.

Todays cars a computor controlled anti-loc brake system is more reliabile, pretty much standard and invisible to the drivers and passengers, unlike the systems used in the 80's and early (I think) 90's.

Cluncking and banging on snow when slowing down to turn corners while riding the brakes could be the anti-lock brake system working.

Don't know for sure, I don't have snow. If there is a switch that turns things on and off, try it.
If it stops clunking, then maybe it is normal or indicates something is going on with that system.

I have had CV joints go out that act just like that.
I have never had a motor mount go out and have it sound like that. Doesn't mean it can't, just never had one happen. I also never changed a motor mount unless it was broken. And any knocking sound caused by a motor mount broken that I have seen take place was a low lever vibration caused by the engine vibrating as it ran.
Broken motor mounts need to be looked at, found and replaced if broken. If one ain't broke, don't fix it.
If it is a CV joint only acting up when it snows? That is going to be harder to determine.
If it is caused by the anti-lock brake system working when the road is extremely slippery? It might be normal, then again, it might not be. Look at what ever locates the front tire assembly that is mounted in rubber to see if the rubber is broken causing parts to move around and whack things when the anti-lock system is controlling that wheel.
Don't know. I have owned cars that the entire front end was shot, all the rubber that located front end parts deteriorated with loose pieces that drove out o.k. more or less but rattled like a dropped trash can going over speed bumps. I am working on one now.
It's hard to guess what is broken working with an in-exact description, can't see the problem your self and pusing the shift button rather than holding a wrench.

Ah, so basically its part of traction control? If I remember correctly, only cars with ABS have traction control. The traction part is able to be turned off, from a button on the console. The way you were saying it confused me. Ive heard of welding the diff pin so I went from there lol.

If the car has abs/trac control, this could be feasible

people do weld the diff pin in S car transmissions..........

Yup on the ABS/Traction Control. I went out and looked at my Saturn last night, it is a traction control system on it. It can be turned off. The car was bought used in 1996 and it has never been in the snow.
I'll have to admidt, being old enough to have driven more than a few cars with limited slip when you are looking for ultimate acceleration almost with out regard to road conditions I would rather have the axle that locks up instead of the system that applies the brakes to the spinning wheel. The down side to that is I have gotten more then a few cars sideways because of it.
On the other hand I had an 87 Oldmobile Cutlass with the W30 suspension and the international suspension package (Cutlass = Generic Front wheel drive suspension) and it has the Buick designed 3.8 in it. Faster than snot and I won a lot of stop light drag races with it. Front when drive cars with power have a tendancy to bump steer a lot when nailed and with out a way to lock up the front wheels I would hold the steering wheel tight to keep the tires straight and nail it, they would spin, blue smoke rising!!!! And the thing would hop around the road but would stay in lane. It generally made enough commotion it would disturb the other drivers concentration and about the time they were distracted it would hook up and dissappear.
I beat a lot of cars that frankly were faster (small block V8 MonteCarlos) because it distracted people, but it was bloody fast.
I am sure people have welded pins in Saturn suspensions, pinion gears have been welded in rear axles too. Except it destroys the natural need to have one tire spin faster than the other while going around corners and puts undo stress on parts and they break. That is a common poor mans locking differenctial, but generally only successful on dirt track racing where traction is poor.
Sprint Cars run a solid axle with a spool and differnt size rear tires but are on dirt and corner sideways while sliding.
On cement, parts break.
Sorry on the confusion, un-intentional. Some times I write the way I think and I discover I function using abstract theory. I did not realize that (who would) until I became a technical instructor and found I thought different than most people. I did not realise how different until I had a student that functioned the same way. Most people need some form of hands on being shown.
An abstract theory person is one who being told once, understands it and can move their hands to make things work. It has it's good and bad points. Sorry, some times at O'dark thirty I wake up in the AM and sit here and write until my back stops hurting. I have never rebuild a differential, but have changed a pinion bearing seal. I have only rebuild a couple of automatics and quite a few standard transmissions. And avoid pulling tansmissions and engines on Front Wheel drive cars. I hurt to damn bad to deal with the tight spaces and the awkwardness of getting at things.

To be honest, I think uncljohn is correct in my situation. I do believe the cv joint is failing. I can hear it at low speeds, but not so much at 55 mph. I searched youtube to see what all would have to be removed to do the axles but I found nothing....well except one where the dude removes the strut tower...hope I dont have to do all that. But Ill drive it til it gets worse since days are still cold and the garage roof leaks everywhere. Never replaced manual trans cv joints, only autos.

Never replaced manual trans cv joints, only autos
================================
half shafts don't care whether they are manual or automatic.
The service information pretty much paralells everything else that I have done. The objective is to get the end of the have shaft that goes through the bearing on the steering knuckle out of it. This is done by removing wheel, rotor and stuff with the nut removed.
To get clearance enough to slide things through you have to some how disconnect the front suspension from the steering knuckle. The book recommends removing the ball joint with a pry bar or some times known as a Pickle Fork. I have yet to figure out how to do this with out damaging the ball joint. I have done it on occaision, but not with a predictable outcome. Removing the strut makes it happen too. What has worked well enough for me was to unbolt what ever the lower control arm looks like from the body of the car. This can generally be done with out damage and it will go back where it came from with out much difficulty. This allows you to swing the lower portion of the strut around far enough to make room with the steering cranked one way or another to slide the stub axle out of the bearing in the steering knuckle. Then the half shaft comes out of the transaxle. All instructions say drain Transaxle first. I have never had the need to. I know I had a Saturn apart twice to change that bearing I just don't remember having to drain the transaxle. Half shafts are available at auto parts stores for something well under $100.00 as a rebuild and have never had a problem with them.
I read your comment on your garage bringing back memories of pulling a transmission a few times in a row on a Gremlin under the same condition. I don't live there anymore and don't miss it.
Good luck!

Im going to back out of what I thought was wrong with the car. The top mount is worn out, so I bought a new one. Saw on another forum that napas and other stores parts are junk..something about a frown mount...and should buy straight from the dealer. I guess I will find out later, but it needs replaced now. Just waiting for the rain to go away.

I recently cleaned out the intake with carb/intake cleaner, boy was it nasty...but had to get it running after I did this, and the entire motor was bobbing back and forth...so that is how I know.

As for the cv axle...i was wrong. If it were the axle, it would be making noise, but mine does not.

I will replace the mount, and if the noise continues, I will look into struts. The towers are beginning to make knocking noise when i push and pull on motor, but that maybe mounts also.

Anyways, Ill post results when I get mount changed out and post a picture of the old mount.

Sad but true, most aftermarket parts for S-Cars are junk and that includes the top mounts.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1603160...9/name/002.jpgIs this mount still good...lol...?http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1603160...8/name/003.jpg

I guess I can not really make a statement such as this and support it. I buy most of my parts as aftermarket and in general from CarQuest. While in some cases one is going to run accross something that is not right and it does happen and it has happened to me. Something that is reverse engineered can be bad.
But also when the design from the Factory is bad AND it goes uncorrected for a decade as the Sensors for the Heat and to turn on the Fan (2 on the early Saturns and 1 only on the later one) the aftermarket sensor is not only instock nation wide in volumn but from some times multiple sources you can not expect that to get corrected even though you think it should. I have owned cars that were new from the ground up on day one and driving them hard and fast racking up the miles and wearing them out even before the dealer has them in stock. And this includes some that parts never did show up even at the dealer. They had to be ordered into the country. Shocks and Brakes on my Dodge Aries come to mind.
And frankly late Saturns that were what what ever you want to call them, corporate platforms, propiatory assembled or just Badge Engineered come under that last catagory. There are no parts distribution for some of them and they have to be ordered from Dehwoo or Opal or whoever it was that made the things and drop shipped to some remote location of the state you live in.
I had an Olds Cutless with a W30 package on it that was hard on brakes, it turned out that they were not in stock anywhere but what was would not fit it. Turned out that they were the same front brakes as used on a Pontiac GT a year earlier. Those I could find.
And also in my opinion, a dealer who used to be a fair reputable source for mechanical repairs and parts have turned into the worst of the price gougers around. The last time I had my Saturn in at the dealers before it closed a $350.00 Estimate that I had made to undertake the repair when I actually decided to bring it in 2 weeks later turned into a $3500.00 repair when the nice young man with the tie and the clip board approached me with the NEW current estimate including $75.00 worth of windshield wipers. A piece that it and others had nothing to do with the reason I was there. He and I had a difference of opinion as to need and neither one of us were happy about it. The repair actually ended up at $750.00 and I had to make a second trip when it still was not working right.
In this case, no one else was willing to attempt a repair and it was one of the few things I could not do myself.
Will I go to a dealer or recommend one for parts and repairs.
Yes, with a qualifier.
Have I lost faith that a dealer is in actuality a viable place to go to.
Yes I have. I no longer think that way and that is way too bad.

Well I finally figured out what the thumping noise is. With the front upper motor mount being soo worn out, allowing the motor to bounce foward...the exhaust has a loose hold-down thingy. So every time the engine bounced...or shook...the exhaust was hitting the underside of car. Struts are all good. Also the heat shield is somewhat loose making noise also. So the problem just got smaller...thank God!

There is probably nothing worse then a loose hold down thingy. They are so hard to diagnose!

Exhaust Hanger...I coulda said thingamajiger

yuh! You coulda. But you know? I could never remember whether Thingamajiger is one word or two! It took me quite awhile to actually diagnose a problem I had was a damaged catalytic converter.
To be honest not the first one I have had, but this time it was a different type of symptom and it was causing a symptom that only showed up once in a while. I actually parked the car for about 2 years because I could not figure out what was happening. I liked the car too much to get rid of it and could not figure out why it was oddly problimatic. One day I woke up with an epiphany as to what was going on, replaced the catalytic converter and found it was internally broken and partially plugged. Fixed the rest of the minor problems. Repainted it and made a repair to the interior. Screwed up the paint job and now it needs it again. It is on my round tuit list along with getting the front seats re-upholstered. Hang in, if you like the silly car, you'll get it fixed just because being stubborn is a way of life.

I have to like this silly car...i still owe $6k on it...yes...I said $6000. It was a buy here pay here car and since I have lack of credit...this is all I could get. But I guess thats ok, because she runs almost perfect. Just replaced the upper bank 1 O2 sensor, and Id say it idles damn near perfect compared to the bad sensor...it still idled around 750 but it would jump up and down.

Ill be checking the entire exhaust here soon. Im getting a louder muffler put on as soon as I get the money. The muffler on it now has a small hole in it, but it has the low tone and I like that. Couple other things to fix and its good to go.

Origin of THINGAMAJIG

alteration of earlier thingum, from thing
first Known Use: 1828


Related to THINGAMAJIG

Synonyms: dingus, doohickey, hickey, thingamabob, doodad (or thingumajig), thingummy, whatchamacallit, whatnot, whatsit (also whatsis or what-is-it)

dork!

I have to like this silly car...
====================
The danged things have a tendancy to grow on you
and as to
DORK
a good number of us represent that!

ooohh I got called a name......

my feelings are so hurt

how old are you anyway?

I will be 30 on the 17th. You?

I think UnclJohn, Hoseppi and I have you both beat. I'll be 56 in August. I'm not sure about the other two guys, and they may not say. I've been called a LOT worse than a dork and just laugh at people who call me names. It drive them crazy! LMAO

well then happy birthday in advance

He's not a "dork" ................ he's derf.

derf is also a well respected mod around here.