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2000 SL2 Fuel Cell

  #1  
Old 12-24-2015, 09:11 PM
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Default 2000 SL2 Fuel Cell

So heres my 2000 Saturn SL2 DOHC which I use to race circle track Sport-Compacts. Everything remains fully stock with regard to the engine. The oem gas tank was burnt up during a race so I chose to upgrade to a fuel cell and an inline fuel pump. Below are the links to each.

43 gph at 40 PSI 13.5volts
JEGS Performance Products 159009, JEGS Inline Fuel Pumps | JEGS Performance Products

JEGS Performance Products 15500, JEGS Circle Track Fuel Cells | JEGS Performance Products

The system is connected like this: the fuel line from the engine runs to the fuel filter. one leaves the filter and goes to the fuel pump which goes to the fuel cell. the second leaves the filter and returns to the fuel cell.

With this set up, the engine will start and idle. I can rev it up briefly but if I hold down the throttle, the engine misses.
("wooooooop-wop-wop-wop-wop-wop")

I believe it might have something to do with the three sensors that attach to the gas tank. (I already tried a code reader, too many errors from unplugging and gutting useless parts or sensors)
1 evaporation emission vent solenoid
2 fuel pressure sensor
3 fuel pump motor/fuel level sensor

Another source for this problem may be the vacuum line from the engine that runs to the back with the fuel line. It originally connected to the oem fuel pump/gas tank system but it was burnt off so I disregarded it. There is no vacuum in the line in the line when the engines running anyways.


Does anybody have any knowledge or experience with fuel pump and fuel pressure sensors?
 
Attached Thumbnails 2000 SL2 Fuel Cell-fullsizerender-1.jpg   2000 SL2 Fuel Cell-fullsizerender-2.jpg   2000 SL2 Fuel Cell-fullsizerender-3.jpg   2000 SL2 Fuel Cell-fullsizerender.jpg  
  #2  
Old 12-26-2015, 01:17 AM
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silly question, but are you possibly hitting the 4K rev limiter?

Look for these in the sea of codes

DTC P0440 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) System
DTC P0441 Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow
DTC P0442 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) System Small Leak Detected
DTC P0443 EVAP Purge Solenoid Valve 1 Control CKT
DTC P0444 Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit Open
DTC P0445 Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit Shorted
DTC P0446 EVAP Vent Solenoid Valve Control System
DTC P0447 Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit Open
DTC P0448 Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit Shorted
DTC P0449 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Vent Solenoid Control Circuit
DTC P0450 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor Circuit
DTC P0451 Evaporative Emission Control System Pressure Sensor Range/Performance
DTC P0452 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor Circuit Low Voltage
DTC P0453 Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor Circuit High Voltage
DTC P0454 Evaporative Emission Control System Pressure Sensor Intermittent
DTC P0455 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) System Leak Detected
DTC P0460 Fuel Level Sensor Circuit
DTC P0461 Fuel Level Sensor Performance
DTC P0462 Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Low Voltage
DTC P0463 Fuel Level Sensor Circuit High Voltage
DTC P0464 Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Intermittent
DTC P0465 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit Malfunction
DTC P0466 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit Range/Performance
DTC P0467 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit Low Input
DTC P0468 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit High Input
DTC P0469 Purge Flow Sensor Circuit Intermittent
 
  #3  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:35 PM
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Yes when I could get it to start, I think thats what it was. The 4k limiter.

It will not consistently start though. The ignition will turn over then it seems like the computer is shutting it off.

When I plug the code reader in it says "no codes."
 
  #4  
Old 01-03-2016, 02:39 AM
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So it starts sometimes? How does it idle and at what rpm?
What's he resistance reading across the ECTS when cold?

The fuel routing you described resembles that of the OEM system. Please confirm if you are using the stock setup or another. The fuel pressure regulator is integrated into the unit. My point being if you're not using the stock filter designed for the car, you will need to address pressure regulation for the system.

The hose coming from the front going to the fuel pump assembly was likely a fuel vapor return line. To exactly what was it connected?

Are the EVAP canister, purge solenoid +valve and vent solenoid+ valve still attached to the vehicle? Not wired up, but are they physically there?

From reviewing your wiring diagram and from just fighting with an EVAP leak on my neighbor's truck, I believe the PCM would simply throw codes for the EVAP system solenoids if the input at the PCM was "out of range".solenoid would think that the PCM could handle not having a
It may be that without the fuel pressure sensor feedback going to the PCM, it will not let the engine run. Conceivably this would be desirable in a crash where the tank is ruptured and the engine is still running
 
  #5  
Old 01-04-2016, 12:42 AM
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There are DTCs for the pressure sensor circuitry, so I do not think the above explanation makes sense -- meaning the PCM would just set the codes and keep on going.

Maybe it is a simple fuel pressure issue. The S cars, when cold started, prime the fuel system for about 3 sec by running the pump when the key is turned to the run position. You hear the fuel pump run and the relay click off if you left the key in run and did not try to crank the engine. This provided sufficient fuel pressure at the rail to start the car.

Is it a correct assumption that you've wired the new fuel pump in so that this priming is still occurring? If not, you may end up with fuel pressure at the rail that is too low to start and keep the engine running.

The opposite scenario might also be true---that with/without priming the fuel pressure is too high and is overrichening the A/F mix to the point of "flooding", in which case it'll be damn hard to start let alone keep running.

Throw a fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve on the rail (I'm assuming 3rd gen Sattys still have one there). Measure

  • fuel pressure from absolute cold start (1st thing in AM). This should give you an idea of the bleed off from the previous day
  • turn the key to run but do not start the car, measure the fuel pressure and its decay, if any, over about 5 min.
  • Turn the key back to off. Note the fuel pressure
  • Turn the key to run, listen for the click of the fuel relay after 3 seconds, then crank -- note the fuel pressure while cranking (rises, drops, erratic) and if the car turns over, the fuel pressure behavior from when it runs to when it dies
Report back w pressure values and I will try to help you sort it out.

___________________
Sorry for the misdirect; I have no hands-on experience w fuel cells or inline fuel pumps (modified fuel delivery systems)

I do, however, have a pretty good handle on the basic OEM fuel delivery system in the S cars and what it's trying to do when.
___________________
I suspect that the pressure at the rail is too low; for it to be too high it would have to overwhelm the pressure regulator inside the filter housing--which I'm sure can happen, but this seems less likely.


How many miles on the fuel filter/regulator?


And how did you go from a sea of codes to zero? Some of the codes require certain criteria to be met on two successive cold starts with a bunch of parameters satisfied, some don't.


I don't think low pressure at the rail will set a code--the circuitry in the back you mentioned will, eventually.

EDIT:
Having re-reviewed the specs on your inline fuel pump, it may be able to deliver 43gph @ 40psi, but I believe that assumes no other pressure drops in the system. You'll drop some pressure across the filter, so I believe you'd have to use a higher PSI inline pump to account for the pressure drop in the system.

Replacement electric pumps for the stock ones state anywhere from 75 to 85 psi min pressure.
What are the specs for yours?
 

Last edited by derf; 01-04-2016 at 01:04 AM.
  #6  
Old 01-07-2016, 09:21 PM
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So it started again today.

I unplugged and re plugged the anti theft sensor back in and the car fired over and ran. It idled fine and reved up great. I unplugged the battery to clean some wires up and now I'm back at sqaure one. It will fire off and shuts down right away.

The security light is blinking and won't go away. I tried the method here and was unsuccesful. 2002 Saturn Vue: anti-theft..or bypass it all together

There are many VATS bypass systems on the internet for about $50. I'm not sure if these will work or not. From my understanding they are for cars with chipped keys.
 
  #7  
Old 01-07-2016, 11:16 PM
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three posts in and NOW you mention the security light? (sigh)

I don't have a chance in hell to help you solve your problem without all the info.
 

Last edited by derf; 01-07-2016 at 11:25 PM.
  #8  
Old 01-07-2016, 11:58 PM
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In the 3rd gen, the passlock feature is embedded into the BCM, a seperate module from the PCM. While the key is in the RUN position the BCM gives a code to the PCM. If it does not match the car will A) not start or B) Start then die with in 3 seconds. Many times a relearn of the passlock codes is sufficient. However the BCM has been known to go bad. Here is how to reset the passlock on the third generation:

"NOTE: DO NOT REMOVE THE KEY DURING THIS AT ALL, or you will have to start the procedure over from the beginning. (May want to hook up a battery charger)


3rd gen S car passlock reset procedure
_________
1) Press the clutch pedal in like your going to start the car (if applicable)
2) Put the key in the ignition and turn it to CRANK
3) The car will try to start and then die
4) Leave the key in the RUN position as if the car started
5) You will notice on your dash that the "SECURITY" light is now on
6) Now wait approx. 10 minutes until the SECURITY light goes out (you wait on the light not the time)
7) When the light goes out turn the key from RUN to the OFF position (keep the key in the ignition) for 5 seconds
8) Repeat steps 1-7 two more times for a total of 3 cycles (30 minutes).
9) When you completed the third cycle you should have the key in the OFF position (per step 7)
NOTE: On the next ignition cycle the car will actually learn the passcode from the BCM
10) Push the clutch pedal in and now really start the car and it should start right up and run.
 
  #9  
Old 01-10-2016, 11:51 PM
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status?
 
  #10  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:10 PM
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I have been running without the key since the beginning.

Your procedure didn't work. Can you reset without the key or do I need to buy a Saturn ignition switch? My plan was to wire up an after market JEGS switch and starter.
 
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