2010 XE 4 cyl won't start
 

Hello. Hoping for some direction.

I was not driving, so I am relying on the info I got.

My daughter was driving on the highway and the car lost acceleration. She pulled over and was not able to start the car again.

Towed it home. I tried to start and it acted like it would turn over, but did not. Then it just cranks and never fires.

If I leave it for a few hours, it will don the same. Acts like it might start the first time. But then, nothing.

Checked out levels, and it was quite low. Worried it may have seized. I added 3 quarts to fill.

I checked spark plugs, seems ok.

Ecm codes
P0420
P0455
B2AAA
P0301

Looking for fuel pump/filter. Not sure that's something I can access.

Starter is good, replaced last year. Replaced alternator a couple weeks ago.

I think the last time I tried, and it wanted to start, I may have heard a sharp noise or bang. Hard to tell.

Having to add 3 quarts of oil is a bad deal.

The 2.4 liter engine holds 4 quarts.

The 3.5 L engine holds 4.5 quarts which I think you could get with the XE but I don't remember but included it just in case.

Either way you're running with 25% of the oil that should be in there which means internal engine damage is likely.

I didn't quite understand your description of what it was doing when trying to start it. You reference that it was like it was going to crank but didn't? then said it would almost fire but then just spin. If you meant you turn the key and heard a thunk sound followed by no spinning of the engine, it may be seized. Otherwise if it is spinning it is not seized.

Pull all the plugs so you are not fighting compression then put a wrench on the crank bolt and see if you can rotate the crank by hand. If you cannot it is likely seized or something else may have broken and is jamming things and will not allow the crank to spin.

If you hear a bunch of metal on metal coming from the timing chain area when cranking, let go of the key immediately. Have someone crank it while you are under the hood, but only for a second. Long enough to tell if that sound is there.

If the timing chain broke, you don't want to cause additional damage. . If the chain has broken you probably have a bunch of bent or destroyed valves from the Pistons hitting them. The chain might not have broken while she was driving it. It may have broken in the driveway afterwards. Don't know. You said the engine was spinning but not firing. It is possible that the b2aaa code has something to do with spark or fuel delivery or injectors. Again do not know.

If this doesn't seem to be the problem and the engine rotates, read on . Explanations of each code follow.

How many of these codes were present before the incident where the vehicle lost power? A p0420 I believe takes 50 miles or 25 miles worth of data to decide after clearing the codes. P0301 is a misfire code animal set immediately if the card to text it is continuous. The check engine light will flash when it is actively misfiring. I don't know how long a p0455 takes to set, but the vehicle is constantly checking the EVAP system while you drive oh, so it's probably something like three occurrences of the EVAP pressure not being what it should be on three consecutive drives.

-----++-

B2aaa indicates an incompatibility between the scanner and part of the communications Network in the vehicle. It can be read with a high-end scanner that has all of the definitions for the manufacturer specific pids. Basically the PID it is reading it cannot understand.

P0420 is the infamous catalyst efficiency below threshold which means either your cat is worn out or one or both of the oxygen sensors has been poisoned to the point it cannot read the oxygen concentration properly.

I do not know off the top of my head whether the 2010 Vue engine has a pre cat at the exhaust manifold or just a cat underneath the vehicle. My only experience is with the latter.

I have had this code on old S series Saturns without oxygen sensor codes. You need to look at the real time data for the front and back O2 sensors to see what the voltage outputs are and whether the cat is actually doing anything.

I have found by personal experience that a front oxygen sensor will last about a hundred to 125000 miles but if you are burning oil it will get poisoned sooner. Never paid attention to how long my rear O2 sensors last but given that most of the crap is removed or converted into less nasty crap by the cat, they tend to live a lot longer. I think my 97 SC2 lasted two about 180,000 miles. But anything is possible.

Po301 is a cylinder 1 misfire. Swap a plug from a different cylinder into cylinder number one and put the cylinder number one plug in cylinder number 2, assuming there is no damage to plug number one. If the misfire follows the spark plug meaning you would get a po302, then the plug is probably bad. It also tells you that the wire and coil to plug number one are okay since they work properly with a different spark plug. However, if you still get a misfire on cylinder 1, swap the coil on plug wire that leads from the plug to the ignition module from another cylinder and try it on cylinder 1. If you still get a cylinder 1 misfire, there is likely a more serious issue, like reduced or no compression. That can happen for a variety of reasons which I will not go into here. Suffice it to say it is not good.

P0455 is an EVAP system leak. Large leak. Sometimes it is as simple as the gas cap not being tight or not sealing properly. So try that first.
EVAP vent solenoid is probably not functioning correctly, possibly vent stuck open. Evap purge solenoid/valve may also be stuck open. Leaked could also be somewhere else.could be a simple case where one of the hoses in the EVAP system became disconnected. You need to get down there underneath and check.
------------
Do not throw parts at this vehicle. It is expensive and pointless.

Start from the simple stuff like will the engine turn and go from there. None of these codes except b2aaa should create a condition that would keep the vehicle from starting. I have read numerous other posts about 2008 Saturns throwing this code, people clearing it, it comes back, but there is no effect whatsoever on drivability. So I really don't think that's it. Just including it for the sake of completeness.

Please let us know what you find

Thank you for that detail.

There are no bad sounds when I crank. It just cranks but doesn't start. So yes, its spinning.

P0455 is the code that has haunted me for a while. It was the only one that was there before this happened. I have replaced the EVAP Canister Purge Valve a couple times in the past. Finally, I thought I got it right with the Vent solenoid. It cleared it for a while but it came back. However, I just pulled the Canister and found that the Vent solenoid was not seated properly. So I just fixed that.

I am using a cheap Bluetooth scanner with Torque Pro. I have used it for several years with multiple cars and have never see the B2aaa.

Coolant
 

More info

When I first started to look at things, I thought the coolant tank looked a little low.

The car has been sitting for a few days and I just now pushed it into the driveway, downhill.

I looked at it again, contemplating removing the valve cover, and I see that the coolant tank is empty.

Can you tell if there's any coolant in the radiator? If it spins and just won't start, you need to start with the basics. Engine needs 4 things to start, Spark, Fuel, Air and Compression. I'd check the plugs first and see if there's spark. If so, check to see if it's getting fuel. Easiest way is to look for the Schrader valve on the fuel line and push it. Keep a rag around it so you don't spray fuel everywhere. Next would be Compression. Remove the plugs and check each cylinder for compression. If that's good, check the timing belt. It had to be getting air in order for it to have been running before it died. I doubt there's a blockage in the intake. If you don't have any of the first 3, you need to try to figure out why. If you have spark and fuel, then I'd suspect a failed timing belt. Compression test will tell you that.

Did your daughter mention overheating?

SPECULATION:
The missing coolant may be from a blown head gasket.

Check the compression on all cylinders.
You can do a loan a tool from AutoZone or similar for free

Thanks for all the advice.

I decided to remove the valve cover to see what I could see. Timing chain seems to be good from up there. Will remove the timing cover to check it out from there.

But I did find 2 rocker arms that were laying in there, not in place. One looks like it was crushed a bit.

No need to remove the bottom cover. Just take a large socket and breaker bar and see if you can rotate the engine. If so, the timing chain is probably okay. If not, then maybe a tensioner let go and jammed the chain. Finding two loose rockers is NOT a good sign. If the engine still rotates, I'd go to the junkyard and grab a few rockers and replace the damaged ones and see if the car will start. Make sure you find out what the proper torque is for them and use some blue loctite.

Thank you.

These rocker arms are not bolted in. Looks like they are held in place by magic...

Piston does not move
 

I rotated the crankshaft to make sure things were really moving freely. And they are. When I came back up, the paper towels I stuck in the spark plug holes were blown out. Except one.

So I put a rod in each port to measure the movement. Well really, to make sure they were all moving and cylinder 1 is not. The piston does not move.

Rocker arms from the intake valves on cylinder 1.

Rocker arms on the 4 cylinder engine can fall out if the valves are bent. I would check compression before going any farther.

If one of the rockers are damaged just put the good one back in if you can. If it is loose and won’t stay in just leave it out but you need to check to see if it is junk.

Whoa!! If # 1 piston isn't moving and the other 3 are, then there is definitely an internal problem. Can you tell if the piston is stuck near the top of the cylinder or middle or low? Sounds like POSSIBLY the rod cap came loose from the crankshaft and once it rotated and pushed the piston into the cylinder, that it stuck there on the down stroke. Sounds like it MIGHT be time for another engine or a rebuild of that one. Further investigation is needed. If it was mine, I'd drop the oil pan and see what's inside there.

Thank you for the clarification, Andy.

(I'll delete that mess shortly)

If the #1 piston is not moving, with the crank/at all, it'll by definition have zero compression since the valves have opened since the "event" and you aren't building any with no movement.
Seems like you'd need to do something akin to a leakdown test on #1 by putting compressed air into cyl 1 through spark plug hole and rotating the engine to TDC #1 at top of the compression stroke, all valves closed.
You can use the timing marks on the crank and hopefully the cam sprockets (should be far enough exposed) to verify TDC. I believe this would also correspond to #4 being at the top, about to begin its intake stroke, so you can find indirectly.
Watching the valves open and close will also help you confirm where # 1 would be at top of the compression stroke (TDC).

Anyway, once at TDC (by def #1) all valves should be closed for the power stroke. So if you get the engine internals positioned as such, and you do the equivalent of a leakdown test w compr air into the plug hole,
------if you hear any air hissing through the intake manifold /air intake route, your intake valves are damaged.
------If you hear hissing through the exhaust system, the exhaust system, the exhaust valves are an issue.
------ if you pull the oil dipstick or filler cap and hear hissing, the piston rings are an issue, though this might happen anyway since the piston is not necessarily centered in the bore and parallel to the direction of travel. especially since we don't know where it is in its travel. If you're lucky it is sitting at the bottom. If it is hung up somewhere in its travel, the rings might be damaged enough to wedge everything in place, possibly some cylinder damage from that.

------------

You already know the engine has been damaged badly enough for 1 cyl to break loose -- and possibly hit the intake valves in the process.
Whether or not you turn out to have valve issues, to me it then becomes an issue of whether you believe the remainder of the engine internals, particularly the bottom end will hold up for a significant amount of time to justify the cost to fix it, given their exposure to the same insufficient lubrication.

Oh -- and there's theoil leak to track down that led to all of this...
If you do your own work, that sways the decision somewhat -- but in the end, it's your call

food for thought

As usual, Rube and I type simultaneously, but my responses are overly verbose and partially inaccurate so his posts hit the board ahead of mine......at least we seem to independently agree in theory....Rube knows internals, Andy knows internals. I try to learn as much as I can from them. My guess was implausible enough for them to give it the polite "that's f'ing wrong" silence which is fine. I'll delete.

This is great!

Thank you for the detailed information. I am doing my own work, and only have limited experience, and you guys have been a great resource.

I know what I need to do to figure out what kind of damage I'm really looking at. Or at least I have some starting points.

Thanks again. I will update when I can.

I missed your post about the number 1 piston not moving. My advise is to start your repairs by locating another engine. Your engine is damaged beyond repair if a rod has come off the crank. I have had two of these engines fail in this way when run out of oil. I purchased these cars as either projects or parts based on how nice the cars are. My current driver had tossed a rod and I replaced the engine and have been driving it now for two years. I purchased a rolled L200 for $100 and used that engine in my car.
Car-part.com is a site that lists wrecking yard inventory by zip codes, it is very handy and will give you an idea what an engine for your car costs and what else they are used in. You may find that the base engine will fit many cars and you can use your manifolds and mounts.
Look and see what is out there near you and decide how much you want to spend on this car. I can advise you once you decide if you have questions.
Andy

Looks like your engine is popular in the Chevy Malibu model, also it is in some Pontiac G6 and some Saturn Aura as well as your Vue. Since there are a lot of Malibus out there the engines are reasonable in price.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...42715adad5.jpg
Broke
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...cdda3c433f.jpg
Really broke
I dropped the oil pan to see what's up. I guess it's what was expected, but it was interesting for me to see it in person.

This is what I'm thinking, hopefully you can tell me where I'm crazy.

First, I need to source an engine. But I'm wondering if I could just do the engine block, and reuse the head. Assuming the head is ok. My guess is the rocker arms came lose due to the impact of the piston.

I was already planning to do a head gasket job, and I might as well check all the valves.

But will that really save me any money, and in the long run, is it just better to do the whole engine?

My experience is limited, but I'm not shy. I recently did a head gasket and valve job on a 2000 Volvo V70.

Not afraid of work, and budget is limited.

I would buy a used engine from a wrecking yard that uses car-part.com to advertise their inventory. I wouldn’t bother taking the engine apart unless you are curious. There will be lots of junk parts since the bearing failed and all that metal is in everywhere there was oil at one time.

Okay, thank you. It looks like I can get one local for about $550. I will look at some others too

I an envisioning needing some special tools, like an engine hoist...

Anything else? I didn't see, and didn't up ask, but is there usually a "core" charge?

You can rent an engine hoist at a tool rental yard. They will probably want your old engine back for scrap value. Don’t take the core to them until you are done. You will want to make sure you have everything you need from your old engine. Sensors, harnesses, manifolds and mounts may be different between whatever the engine comes from and your car. Buy a Haynes or Chilton type manual, they are written for the home mechanic with not to much experience. You will need a floor jack to hold up the transmission while you lift out the engine. You will want to replace the front crank seal and maybe the rear one while the engine is out. Look closely at the water pump also, there is an inexpensive tool to hold the balance shaft chain in place and the time to change the pump is when the engine is out.

Awesome! Thank you

I have found an engine pretty close to me for $400 ($65 core charge). Has a cracked Oil Pan they say. So I would make sure my oil pan is cleaned out and ready to use instead. They have another but its $650. Lower mileage and I dont have to deal with the Oil Pan. But the $400 looks attractive to me.

Found another one close by for $550. So its in between.

All were found from car-part.com. And you are right, I dont want to take things apart. I dont need to be curious...

If your oil pan is not damaged and you want to use it take it completely apart to clean it. Remove any shields and the oil tube, the screen on the bottom will be full of crap. On my $100 rollover engine I had to replace the oil pan also.

def go for the complete engine. Just wondering (since I've never personally sourced an engine for a car, what kind of warranty do most places offer, if any? 90 days?

That is pretty standard and most just provide another engine but not labor. Most will give an oil pressure and compression report before purchase. If they spend the money and it is expensive to advertise on Car-part.com they are a reputable wrecking yard. I would personally buy the one with the broken oil pan so I could look inside without compromising the warranty. If it has over 100,000 miles I would replace the water pump while it is out as well as the crank seals.

I will get the engine this week, as well as a hoist. I've cleaned up the oil pan and am working on disconnecting everything.

As I removed all the wiring harness connections, I wondered about the AC compressor. After I remove the belt, I'm thinking I can unbolt the compressor without removing the AC lines. Will that work?

Engine through the top is the plan.

On the L series you can place the compressor on the radiator core support and leave the system charged. You may have to remove the crank pulley and the engine mount to block piece to be able to pull the engine. The torque converter stays with the transmission but the flywheel sticks out a little bit.

Well, I got all the stuff off and found all the bolts. Attempting to pull the engine, but it won't clear the transmission. It's not just the flywheel... And transmission oil (I guess) is now flowing.
Fun.

Did you disconnect the four bolts that hold the torque converter to the flywheel? They are accessed through the starter hole.

Oh. Crap.

I guess he pulled the torque converter out far enough for it to be leaking out of the front seal, Andy?

Ok, you an still separate them. Can you turn the engine one complete revolution with you broken rod? The front seal on the transmission is not difficult to replace, the torque converter should be fine.

Ok good.
I can turn the engine, so I will concentrate on separating the torque converter. Then the engine should come out. I have a replacement seal, so I will do that.

Thanks

Engine is out. Since I already removed the oil pan, the bolts for the torque converter were real easy to get to. Seems like they would be more of a challenge through the starter hole...

Torque converter come right out. No damage that I can see.

Not sure what other kinds of hoists there are, but I'm going to remove the hood when I put in the new engine. There was not enough room...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...824037029a.jpg
New engine thermostat housing
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...cb6070c73f.jpg
Old engine thermostat housing

So, my old engine has a return from the coolant reservoir into the thermostat housing. But not the new one. I am assuming I can just swap them out?

Yes plus use all the sensors from your old engine. You really only want to use the long block which is the head and block plus internals. There may be differences in the manifolds and connectors. Look it over closely and if they are identical they can be used. Look at casting numbers on the manifolds etc.

The replacement seal I have is not the right one, so I need to get one. Finding it local is proving difficult, as I'm not sure what to call it. Crankshaft front seal is what I'm saying. Please let me know if that's not right.

I'm not sure what makes up the seal. Is it just the orange part, or is there more to it.

If I remove it, will it start leaking fluid? Do I need to prepare anything?

Thanks. This is the last step before I put the engine in...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...6e5d2264b4.jpg

Torque converter seal
 

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...bda24c8364.jpg
O'Reilly is calling this a torque converter seal.