Saturn S Series Sedan SL, SL1, and SL2

Mystery Problem Mechanics Can't Diagnose

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  #11  
Old 06-07-2016, 08:43 PM
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As to whether the shop that had it for 2 days should have been able to diagnose the problem:

Part of it depends on their experience with and knowledge of the weaknesses of the s series cars. Measuring the resistance of the sensor w the engine cold would read in spec.
The behavior of CKPs failing is not unusual, but most other cars default to a different sensor when the ckP fails. Saturn s cars do NOT have this other sensor. Sounds as though they are not well versed in S cars or they would have known how to test the CKP properly.

The other part depends on how detailed your description of the problem was AND how much of it they bothered to write down. You can't reproduce a problem if you didn't write down the specifics of how to reproduce it.

I would simply label these folks as inexperienced in saturn S series vehicles.

As these cars get older and older, the number of mechanics familiar with them dwindles just like the parts supplies.

That's why joining a forum like this can be so beneficial. You are instantly connected to hundreds of saturn owners, many of which have a Saturn similar to yours or understand the theory of operation of the control of the engine.
 
  #12  
Old 06-07-2016, 09:57 PM
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Default Mystery Mechanics Cannot Diagnose

I really appreciate the info about how to simulate driving the car without actually driving it in order to make sure it is working. I have to admit I am a bit....no, a lot afraid of being stranded again, esp. in this pollution and heat when I don't have anybody to call for help. So I will do what you suggested tomorrow. Thank you again. That is a big help.

OK, so the mechanic must get a discount because the part at O"Reilly's was $35.58, and he paid $22.72 with tax. The receipt says "Crank Sensor."

The box he gave me has a part in it. It is a small black tube that is solid at the bottom, with a flange that sticks out with a round hole it and two numbers stamped on it and an oval shaped mouth on the top. (I know I am making the dog's breakfast out of this description.) The box says BWD Engine Management Technology and it says Sensor on the top.
 
  #13  
Old 06-08-2016, 01:36 AM
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Yes indeed, crank sensor is short for crankshaft position sensor. And that's a nice discount so he must have a corp account. And your description of the old part is spot on -- don't sell yourself short.
 
  #14  
Old 06-08-2016, 01:07 PM
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Default Mystery Mechanics Cannot Diagnose - car not running

I am glad you suggested that method of testing the car. If I had tried to drive it, I would have been stranded again.

Earlier this morning when it was still in the high 80's, I started the engine and ran it for about ten minutes. When I tried to restart it, it was reluctant to start again, but it finally did, though it sounded as if it was going to stall.

I let it rest for a couple of hours.

Now it is near 100F with the heat index, and very humid.

I started it without a problem, let it run for 7 minutes, and turned it off. Then I tried to restart it. It would not start, and all the lights on the dash came on. Over the next 15 minutes I tried to start it several times. No.

I phoned a car repair shop in town. I was first told they have Saturn mechanics, then that they were GM mechanics, but they first charge $210 to run diagnostics on the car, before they will work on it.
Is that common? That is....it is common to run diagnostics and is it common for diagnostics to cost that much.
 

Last edited by violetbrown; 06-08-2016 at 02:30 PM. Reason: more info to add
  #15  
Old 06-08-2016, 10:00 PM
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When you say all the lights on the dash came on, do you mean they came on when you turned the key (the usual light check) but they all stayed on?

Can you restart the car once it completely cools down?

When it is running, is the "Service Engine Soon" light lit up and on steady?

Also, when it is running NOW, are all the dash lights staying lit up?
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The shop you called is full of crap. Standard Diag fee at a GM dealership is $95 (call to check before you go)

And Saturn Mechanics don't exist anymore since there is no Saturn. GM mechanics work at GM dealerships. What they mean is they have people that can work on Saturns and GM cars. What it does not mean is that they have a clue about Saturns

They are also trying to take you to the cleaners for a diagnostic, which undoubtedly will lead to $500 in bogus repairs or a way overpriced legitimate repair.

Yes, it is common to run diagnostics before working on a car.
In fact, if the Service Engine Soon Light is on while the car is running, you can have SOME of the diagnostic codes read for free at Autozone, O'reilly's, etc.
If the light is on, take it to the nearest auto parts store and have the codes read. You can do that with the car running. Please get the actual codes in the form of Pxxxx where the X's are numbers, and post them here.

Additional codes can be stored in different modules of the car, but reading them requires more specialized equipment than Auto Parts stores have.

I assumed the service engine soon light was not on, as you have not mentioned it previously.

When you go out to the car, is there a security light or light on the dash like a lock or key? Is it solid, flashing?

------------------------

One thing your driveway test has shown is that an immediate restart when very hot is not possible. This indicates that the Crank Position Sensor is still behaving normally, since it was NOT in defect mode right before you shut off the car. If it was, the engine would simply stall first. This is not a situation that had been tested before, so you have gathered a key piece of information in the puzzle
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The fact that it cannot be restarted immediately when hot leads me to believe the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECTS) MAY be faulty. When it fails, it causes the car's computer to make a very "rich" mixture of air and fuel -- Alot of fuel, not as much air.

As the engine heats up, the failed ECTS reading remains too low and unchanged, so the "rich" mixture stays in place. Problem is, a warmed up engine does not want that rich a mixture and will run poorly, want to stall, and often be hard or impossible to start when hot as the mixture is just too rich. Once the engine cools completely down, the car might be started and run on the rich mixture.

When you crank the engine over, can you hear it trying to fire (combustion; spark igniting air fuel mix) or is the engine just cranking with no firing noises?

I suspect the ECTS is part of the problem, but if your dash remains lit up like a Christmas tree, that's a whole other issue. So don't buy any parts for now.

I'm going to PM you some information.
 

Last edited by derf; 01-01-2017 at 09:08 PM.
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