Intermittent, possibly water-related starting issue.
 

1997 manual Saturn SL-1, doesn't have the Remote Keyless Entry option (I see that mentioned on starter wiring diagrams)

I drove rather fast through several puddles yesterday, and then my car wouldn't start. I've done that many times before (actually kind of purposely trying to make a splash to clean off the underside of the car) with no issue. One complication is that my fender liner parts are not installed in the front passenger fender well, so stuff does tend to get splashed onto the engine, including grit if driving on a dirt/gravel road etc (not the case two days ago). I could see water actually puddled in the two deep indentations between the passenger-side end of the valve cover and the motor mount, way up on top of the motor, so obviously things really got a splashed.

This happened around 10 AM yesterday. I had the car transported home and started trying to think what to check first. Other than fuses, the only thing I got around to confirming was that the battery was fully charged (the tow truck driver connected a booster pack to it to see if that would help it to start, and of course it didn't), and that there were 12 volts at the appropriate heavy terminal on the starter, the one that also has the cable going over to the alternator. That's supposed to be "hot" 24/7 regardless of position of ignition switch, and it was.

Well, today, about 24 hours after the problem occcurred , I was about to continue my diagnostic attempts, when the car started. Multiple times. No problem.

(I had checked before, with last effort probably being about 12 hours after the problem occurred, with no luck.)

Symptoms of the non-start efforts were-- basically nothing. No noise at all from starter or solenoid so far as I could hear from inside the car, no dimming of lights or other indication that battery was under load.

What probably happened, water got into the (solenoid?) and then it dried out? And/or the starter itself? Any guess as to which is more likely?

Btw the starter/solenoid was replaced with a rebuilt one within the last 6 months.

What would you do, just avoid driving fast through puddles in the future? And put the fender liner back in? Or go ahead and change the starter + solenoid?

If it happens again I'll try to check more things before it resolves (if it resolves), like confirming power goes to the appopriate terminal on the starter/solenoid when the key is turned to "start". Maybe I should fabricate a wire with connector for this purpose so I have it ready--

(Edit: never mind about the reset of the radio memory/ clock time. I'm sure that's because I pulled a fuse, duh.)

This car also has had an *extremely* intermittent fault where I'm driving and just for a few seconds all electrical power seems to be cut. The needles on the instrument panel drop to zero. I *think* but can't 100% remember for sure that the engine cut out as well. Maybe I wasn't even sure, as it did happen on the highway with all the wind noise etc so it's hard to hear what the motor is doing, and it just lasted for like 2 seconds. Happened twice within 24-48 hours and then not again for several months now. Wasn't a rainy day. If it happens again I'll be sure to notice, and make notes on, whether or not the motor did cut out. I'm assuming no connection to the starter issue, probably. Thoughts?

Thanks --

PS I would like to better understand the wires going to /from the starter relay. I haven't physically laid eyes on the relay yet. I am looking at these two diagrams: https://www.saturnforum.com/forum/sa...645/#post77456 and https://charm.li/Saturn/1997/SL%20L4...ting%20System/.

1) So wire A1 simply goes to ground, when the relay is NOT engaged? And goes nowhere when the relay is engaged?

2) Wire A2 goes through the clutch switch to the underhood junction box?

3) If I apply 12 volts to wire C1, then this takes ignition switch and the starter relay out of the picture, and the starter should crank if there is nothing wrong with the starter, the solenoid, and the connections between C1 and those components, correct?

4) Do I need to disconnect anything before applying 12 volts to wire C1 or can I just poke a pin into it and apply 12 volts and see what happens, without fear of damaging anything?

(I am trying to be better prepared to take diagostic action should the problem recur-- )

Well I spoke too soon or didn't knock on wood or whatever -- the starter problem is happening again exactly as before. So it can truly be described as "intermittent" -- not just a one-time episode. And I did not drive through any puddles this time.

After I found it would start and posted accordingly, I let it sit about an hour, then started it and drove somewhere a couple of miles away (so the car would have warmed up), let it sit about an hour, started it again, drove a couple miles back home, let it sit about 15 minutes, and now the problem is back, no start. Will start making some measurements and tests shortly here.

Theory: if something is soaked with water, maybe when the car warms up the water tends to vaporize and go other places? Or maybe as the car drives the water splashes to places in the starter or solenoid that dry out when the car is stationary and the water all runs to the bottom of said part? Just a wild guess. I am having a hard believing that there is no connection at all to having driven through some puddles at high speed, about 18 hours ago now, and finding evidence that water had splashed all over the engine compartment. But... maybe.. who knows...

Check tightness and cleanliness of battery terminals

They are good and tight and look clean when I take them off. That style of connector that doesn't involve a ring clamp is better than the ring clamp style I'm sure--

If you want to isolate the starter, feed 12V in on the purple wire exiting the clutch safety switch. It is open by default so you will not be feeding anything bad into the system. If it's more convenient, you can tap into that purple wire closer to the starter itself.

A1 goes to ground
A2 exits the relay and feeds the neutral safety switch which then feeds the purple wire mentioned above

If you want to check the integrity of the relay, I think you mean putting 12 volts at C1 the input to the relay. As long as the ignition switch is not in crank, this should be fine. Note that you will have to depress the clutch to close neutral safety switch which will trigger the starter. Make sure the shifter is in neutral and the parking brake is on

I have had more trouble with the clutch switch. Yes, put the inner fenders back in and quit intensionally driving through puddles. If you flood your air intake you can hydrolock and destroy your engine.

Thank you. Currently working on putting a wire with a circular end right on to the terminal on the solenoid that the purple wire goes to. Will report back --

Have that wire in place now. The purple wire is also still in place . When I took my new wire and touched it to the + terminal of the battery to feed 12 volts to that terminal on the solenoid, the first two times the car did crank, but then it wouldn't any more. When I took my new wire and used it as a voltage probe, measuring from that terminal of the solenoid that the purple wire goes to, to ground, I get 12+ volts when the key is turned to crank position. So the voltage is getting there but most of the time the starter doesn't turn and the solenoid doesn't make a sound.

It is kind of weird that the first two times I used my added wire to feed 12 volts to the terminal on the solenoid, without turning the key, the starter did turn, even though it hadn't whenever I checked it by turning the key, ever since the second failure. Complete and utter coincidence? I didn't think to check it by turning the key the instant before I used the new wire to feed 12 volts to that terminal.

The battery still has plenty of charge.

I'm thinking the solenoid is intermittently failing and when it is failing, it is not feeding any voltage to the starter. I guess I'll be changing the starter/solenoid. Again! The other change was around March 1 of this year.

If you're tapping in to the circuit before the starter relay, you have multiple components in the circuit besides the starter. If it doesn't work, you have no way to differentiate which component is acting up.

If you tap in after the neutral safety switch, only the starter is in the circuit. If it doesn't work this way, the Bendix in the starter is defective and you need to replace your starter.

I'm going to guess this was a reman starter from AutoZone or Advance....yes?