Couple of issues-98 Saturn Sl2
 

Hello all,

Have found some resourceful info on here as a lurker, decided to register and help contribute, ask detailed questions on my 98 Saturn SL2.

Background info:
I purchased the car about 2 years ago for $1200. Over the past two years it has been a great car. Has about 240k miles on it, and I have done little maintenance/repairs on it.

But lately I have had to do a few repairs and fixes. So I have a few questions that hopefully I can get some feedback to resolve. For the past 6 months or so my car was running hot when stopped in park or idle. I found a leak on my water pump, so I replaced the pump/gasket, thermostat and the temperature sensor(which was cracked and busted) After all that was fixed, the car seems to have no issues running hot, however the low coolant light still flashes. Does this need to be reset? Or is there something else I may need to do?

Also, my "Service Engine Soon" light has been on for awhile. I know I could probably get this answered by going to Auto Zone and having them run a test on it, but was wondering if this light is on because of some bogging issues I have.
I get great gas mileage. Full tank can get me around 350 miles. But when I drive, especially up a hill, the car bogs when Im pushing on the gas and I have to almost punch it to get it to go. Then the car shakes out of its bog, revs to like 4000rpm's and takes off. Does this quite often. Is this an O2 sensor issue, or more along the lines of throttle body/throttle body sensor?

Any info or help would be greatly appreciated!

You need to get the code(s) read, otherwise you are just shooting in the dark. Post the actual code here (P0xxx) and we will be happy to help.

Sounds good, I will go do that today and post the results. I kind of figured Id be shooting in the dark if I didnt, and end up replacing 15 things in the process.

Crankshaft Sensor was bad. Bought a new one, will replace this weekend. So just a heads up for anyone having similar symptoms.

Also found that 1st gear was bad. I did some googling and found that I have the "Reverse Slam" issue with my car. Which I had suspected there was some type of transmission error.

Upon reading more online I found that one of the best resolves for this is changing the fluid and filter, refilling and then keeping in reverse with engine on for 20 minutes. Guy at part store agreed, but said to be aware that sometimes when a car goes as long as mine with transmission fluid change(240k from what Im aware of) that sometimes it can cause issues, cause the removal of fluid could loosen things that the old fluid had been "keeping in place." What are your guys thoughts on doing this?

Stop in the new member area and give yourself a proper intro. Then go into the user cp open your signature and add your first name, location, and car.

Hmmmm, I've never heard of leaving one in reverse for 20 minutes. What the heck is that supposed to accomplish? Did the crank sensor cure your bogging problem? If not, I'd think you need to check your catalytic converter. It could be coming apart and stopping up. But please do what sw2cam asked you to do before replying to posts, okay? Thanks

I attempted to change the crankshaft sensor yesterday. Good lord, the starter is going to be a nightmare to get off to get to the sensor. Will have to wait til this weekend. I have a friend who has a shop with a pit. That may be the best bet because the room allowed near the starter is slim to none. Or if I can find some ramps to use. Cause a simple jack and jack stand doesnt give me enough room to work.

Heres the info I found on fixing the reverse slam. Alot of people have said that this has fixed their issue:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23670

Not sure why my signature is not showing, I have it updated in the User CP. Can even see it in the "Signature Preview."

Edit-There it goes.

Thanks for that link, Judobrad. I just had my SES light come on and I ran the codes on it. Got an 11 and a 26 from the SES and then the HOT light came on and flashed more codes. I counted a 72, 74 and 81 and they are NOT in my Haynes manual. Closest I can find are a 75 and 78 which indicate 3rd and 4th gear are stuck on. Makes no sense to me, but the damn thing does feel like it's slipping between changing gears. I changed the fluid and filter 10 days ago and added some Lucas transmission treatment. I'm currently trying the reverse slam procedure while I'm typing this. I'll let y'all know if it works.

Great, look forward to hearing how it works for you. I was planning on trying the reverse slam fix this evening when I get home from work. I have found this resolution on other sites across the web. Says it works for the majority of people but not all. If I can be in that majority with this fix and postpone/bypass a valve body replacement, Im all for it.

While doing some random reading on this forum, Im hoping my bogging issues arent due to the catalytic converter. I actually do hear a slight rattling noise from there when parked or in idle. Ill change the crankshaft sensor first and see if that resolves it. If not, I will assume the converter is getting blocked by whatever is loose in there.

Well, I tried it for 30 minutes and I have noticed an improvement in the shifting. It's smoother and quieter now, but still not what I'd call perfect, if there is such a thing. I may do it again in the next day or two and see how that goes. But, I'm happy that it seemed to have helped some for now. Your rattling noise may not be the cat con, Brad, but it could possibly be a loose heat shield on the exhaust. Check that first.

Good to hear you had some luck. I'll check the heat shield while I'm under there to be sure. Any idea how many quarts of atf my car would take?

Mine took four with about a 30 minute drain time. If you let it drain for a couple of hours or more, you MIGHT get another 1/2 quart or so. The doofus woman at O'Reilly Auto Parts where I got my filter told me 4.25 quarts. BUT she also asked me if it had an internal or external filter. I told her I'd never heard of a 94 model Saturn having an internal filter, as it doesn't have a pan to remove. She told me I didn't know what I was talking about because her brother has an SC1 with a removable pan and internal filter that she works on all the time. I just told her to get me the damned spin on filter and I'd be on my way. No more shopping at O'Reillys for me. Not one male employee in the store. Three women. I sure hope the other two know something about cars! Just pick up a gallon jug of Dexron at Walmart and get an additive of your choice. You should be good to go.

quote
After all that was fixed, the car seems to have no issues running hot, however the low coolant light still flashes. Does this need to be reset? Or is there something else I may need to do?
unquote

This one probably more than anything else is the sensor is full of gook from the coolant. I have had this happen a few times on my car, but then again I have owned mine since 1996. You could try just opening the tank and using a high pressure hose and blast it with water from a hose. With the engine not running the residual gunk will come out of the tank pretty much with out a problem as you over fill things.. Or remove the tank and do pretty much the same thing and then re-install it.

quote
The doofus woman at O'Reilly Auto Parts
unquote
Not all women are doofus and O'Reilly can be a good place to shop.

The local one where I live has quality counter people and I will agree quality is not nescissarily a requirement to be a parts counter person any more. Some pin head some where figured if they computerized everything they could hire people that the only requirement was that they can stand up with help.
Herme, is not only a first class counter person she knows how work the parts look up to find almost anything. And when you are looking up parts for a 30 year old out of production model, that is a good feature to know. My O'Rielly's is a good shop to go to and Herme and the others are all good counter people. And she is cute too.

Ruby, an 81 is an ABS fault
and I think the following are:
72 cooling system low temperature
74 coolant/transmission temperature ratio error.

The last two point at a CTS or coolant temperature sensor problem with its tracking capability

This is a trouble shooting with error codes section of the professional Mitchel's diagnostics I have.

I think now I need to find out if the Snap On OBD-1 Code reader I have will actually work with the 94 version of OBD-1 logic.

Cheers

Well, the hell of it is, Unc, that after doing the reverse slam procedure, the SES light is now out and everything is running fine. I took it to Nashville this morning to Pull-A-Part looking for yet another instrument cluster and it ran great. I found a few trim pieces I was hunting and scored an instrument cluster out of a 93 SW with 65,435 miles on it? The body on it was perfect and the only interior problems I saw was a ripped drivers seat and cracked dash cover. I tried to pop the hatch and grab the tail lights, but couldn't get the hatch to budge. I wonder why it was scrapped. Unfortunately for Ocean Archer, it was not a manual window set up, or I'd have grabbed the door panel he wanted. Got home and installed the instrument cluster and everything works, even the odometer. SCORE! Now I have that one and a backup. All in all not a bad trip and I averaged 31.25mpg on the 170 mile round trip. I'm a happy man.

Before I changed out the water pump I took the tank out and cleaned it out real good. I had put some sealant in months ago to stop the leak until I could fix the water pump so the tank was pretty gunky at the time. I assume my light issue might be the rest of the sealant floating around in places I couldnt rinse out and now on my sensor. I may have to do another flush and change sensors again to get the light to go off.

Tried to change my crankshaft sensor again with no luck, I just cant get enough room to work on it with a standard jack and jackstands. A mechanic down the street with a lift will do it really cheap so Im going to pay him to do it in the next few days, then will do the reverse slam fix. Sounds like it worked fairly well for you Rube, Im excited that I may get the same results!

I am not a personal big fan of a repair procedure that in itself can be described as an abusive approach to things. And a reverse slam sure comes close to that. However I have noticed over time on my 94 SC2 that if I have not driven it for a while the transmission shifts harsh if I have let it sit for an extended period of time. Driving it more often and longer sure makes a difference.
Face it after all the years the thing has been on the road a certain amount of gunk has accumulated in the transmission and it is logical that it can be sticky or cause things to be sticky so I guess there is some logic to the reverse slam even if I do not agree with it.

Unc, my understanding of the procedure was that it was to "CURE" a condition called "reverse slam"...basically the fluid and filter got changed-out and then the car got idled in reverse gear for 30 minutes or so? No slamming involved, I don't think...
I could be wrong, of course, so I'm gonna flit back and re-read the posts and see...

The condition is indeed called "reverse slam", probably stemming from the harsh engagement of the reverse gears, which feels like something slamming into place. It doesn't sound like there's any slamming involved in the procedure, but it sounds rather strange. I'm not sure it's wise to leave a car run, in gear, for that amount of time without actually moving the vehicle. While I'm sure the fan would kick in to prevent overheating, it just seems potentially harmful to the transmission due to the engine trying to make the car move and your brakes or brick wall (as suggested in the link) preventing that.

Speculate as you will, gentlemen, but all I know is that mine sure as hell shifts a lot better and smoother than it did before I tried this. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Idling in reverse for 30 minutes is not going to hurt anything -- unless of course there's already something wrong that it will exacerbate.

First of all, unless the engine is idling above 650-750 RPM the torque converter is not fully hooked up so it isn't trying all that hard to make the car move. Mostly just pumping ATF through the system.

Secondly, you can turn your air conditioner on and the fan will run all the time so you shouldn't have any overheating issues. If no a/c then the fan will come on automatically each time the temp needle reaches about 3/4 on the gauge and quickly pull the temperature back down.

About the only thing I can think of that this procedure is doing that might be helpful is reversing the fluid flow through some of those tiny channels inside the valve body and [possibly] clearing some sediment that is partially blocking normal flow.

I think I might have reversed things -- no pun intended. Run it in reverse for 30 minutes, then change the fluid and filter (clean the magnet if its still there) and then run in reverse for another 30 minutes. If perchance it really is removing some partial blockage then try to catch it in your old filter or have it come out when you drain the ATF. Don't loosen it into your brand new fluid if you can help it.

But if experience says it works, hey, never look a gift horse in the mouth.

All great feedback, appreciate it!

I will be doing a "reverse slam" fix attempt this weekend, maybe tomorrow if I get the chance and will update you guys on it. I have a notorious reverse slam issue, where I have to put it in neutral for a few seconds before reverse to avoid the slam. And slam is an understatement. The few times its happened I thought the car had ripped in half. Have avoided it for a long time now with the slow shift from neutral. If this "fix" helps it even a bit, I will be pretty stoked.

Alright, found time to try the reverse slam cure last night. Drained the transmission fluid, probably first time in 240k miles its been done. Fluid was filthy. Changed filter, which had so much engine gunk from years of hanging out there, that I had to wipe it down to find it. Changed everything, put it in reverse for 30 minutes and am having no issues with reverse now. It is very smooth, moves into gear at normal timing now. Dont have to go into neutral first anymore.

Ill try it a few more times today after a few long drives to make sure it works when everything is scathing hot, but the 10 times I did it yesterday, no issues. For a total of $50 in parts(Fluid, filter and Lucas transmission slip fix) its definitely a great first start for anyone thats having this issue.

That's great news Judobrad. Glad it worked for you and especially glad that you took the time to post your results.

So, I dropped the car off to get the crankshaft sensor changed. The mechanic called me and said he didnt want me to waste money on changing it as he says he believes via diagnostics that its the timing chain thats the problem. Super stoked by that diagnosis.

I asked for the cost of repair and he asked with the car having that many mileage if I really wanted it done. Told him other than that, the car is a champ, so the investment is worth it. Quoted me $650 to repair it.

So that leads me to this question. I am not a mechanic by any means, but I am probably above average on car repair knowledge. Only time I use a mechanic is if I need a lift or some crazy tool that costs more than the labor to fix it. Ive done all of my own basic repairs, but never real engine work like this. Ive seen plenty of DIY videos online and it doesnt seem over complicated. Time consuming, but not complicated. If I did this repair myself, would I be getting in over my head? Ill have to invest a bit in some tools that I may not have, but in the end Im saving myself almost $400 doing it on my own.

Any thoughts?

That price quoted seems a bit high to me...but maybe there's something about that job on your car that drives the labor cost up somehow...I was expecting something more in the $350 range, and at that cost it's well worth having a pro do it for you...

Keith I never got the code thats why I never posted it. The guy at Advance Auto Parts said that when hooked up to my car it just said Crankshaft Sensor. The mechanic hooked it up to a much better machine and it said that it kept alternating between Crankshaft and Camshaft(I believe thats what he said) but he said that it kept switching from one to another which is always indicative of a bad timing chain/Loose timing chain,etc.

I know the kit costs about $130, so the other $500 is in labor. I know they charge $80 an hour I believe in labor, so 6 hours or so in labor to replace is my guess.

OK the guy at Advanced Auto is full of BS. The code readers only give a code, that is all. advanced code readers will give a short description of the code but that is subject to interpretation. Most of the time, the guys at the parts stores will go in and put the code into their computer and it spits out a diagnosis with recommended repair parts on a cash register receipt. The code will be printed at the top of the cash register receipt.

Either try another car parts place like AutoZone or go back to advanced and ask them to read the code again and ask them for the specific code, not their interpretation. If you then want to research this code for yourself, you can by going to

http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/

BTW, since I use a satellite for my internet and it often hangs up when loading a page, I keep this site open in a second tab. I don't know why, but when a page hangs up and doesn't finish loading, I refresh this page instead of the one hanging up and the page that is hung up will finish loading immediately. Much faster than trying to stop the load and refreshing. Go figure.

Ooh, I just noticed something, the guy with the advanced machine said it was switching between the crankshaft and the camshaft sensor. Saturn does not have a camshaft position sensor per say. Under one of the coil packs is an insulated piece of metal that acts like a capacitor. It senses the amplitude of the spark.

Saturn's use a lost spark ignition system. That means the spark plugs fire every time the piston approaches TDC, not just on the compression stroke. When it fires on the exhaust stroke, the spark doesn't do anything, hence it is "lost". You have two coils, each one serves two cylinders. One coil fires cylinders 1 and 4, as both of those pistons reach TDC at the same time, it fires both cylinders at the same time. The plate is under the #4 side of the coil.

The amount of voltage developed during the spark is different when the cylinder is on the compression stroke than when it is on the exhaust stroke. The plate senses the difference to tell the computer when it was cylinder #4 that was under compression at the time of the spark.

Most advanced readers used by mechanics have a mode in them that can read the pulses from the #4 cylinder to determine if that is working correctly. The plate itself does not go bad, not that I have ever heard of anyway, not much to go wrong with them, but something as small as a different resistance in either the #1 or #4 spark plug wires, their sparkplugs themselves or possibly even the coil itself can cause the computer to get confused. The computer will think the issue is in the CPS or CPK when it actually is elsewhere.

BTW, if the timing chain were a problem, you would hear it, it makes a loud rattle as it starts going bad. You won't miss that.

Keith, that is fantastic info. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. The last thing I want to do is spend all weekend replacing a timing chain that may or may not need changing. My engine runs pretty darn quiet for a 98 car with 245k miles on it. So I cant say theres any loud rattling via the timing chain.

What would be your recommendation for resolving my issue(Or steps to take first)? Start with the plugs and wires?

Thanks again for writing that up.

I just went through the thread and am trying to figure out why the timing chain is being changed. It went from the crank shaft position sensor to timing chain. One I presume was from a error code diagnostic the second is from WHAT?
Yes 250ishK miles is a lot of miles. I will not disagree with that. However that timing chain has proved to be pretty much indestructible. And based on the concept of changing the crank shaft position sensor, vs changing the timing chain based on the information in this thread which is a mechanic saying one is a waste of money which should not be an overly expensive job even if it is needed vs a timing chain replacement at an out lay of 600 dollars I have to say that some one is making a lot of money doing it and some one else might be wasting a lot of money to have it done. unless I had the engine out for a major rebuild I personally would not bother with changing one as a maintenance item.
So I must have missed the logic of how you got from replacing a sensor which will not make a noise, to replacing a timing chain which probably makes a ton of noise when it is worn enough to represent a problem based on an error code which there is none of that indicate timing chain wear.

I agree Unc, thats why I decided to come to this forum before getting into a ton of work. The guy at Advance Auto Parts said that the car was reading bad crankshaft sensor, so I bought that(Only $15) I could not change it myself due to the tight location behind the starter, and could not get the car up high enough to work on it. Took it to a mechanic here in town that is always an honest guy, but he called me and said he didnt want to charge me the $80 to replace the sensor because when he hooked the car up to see what the service engine soon light was throwing, he said(Im going off memory here) that the codes were throwing alternating "Crankshaft/Camshaft" codes, which to him was common for a bad/loose timing chain. He said it would be $650 to fix/replace, and asked me if I really wanted to invest that much into a car with over 200k miles. I picked it up, no charge and went home.

So now here I am, with a car that starts just fine, runs smooth in idle, but when you drive it, especially on hills or going from stop to faster speeds, really bogs down, but if you "punch it" the rpm's will rev up and it will take off like a bat out of hell. But will immediately bog again when you start the hill/speed process over.

Ill record some audio later this evening of the engine running. I dont think it sounds like a timing chain at all, but Ill let you guys decide. I bought new spark plugs and wires, and will get a new coil pack if that may be an alternative as well. Before investing $650 on a timing chain I will find a way to replace the crankshaft sensor as well.

Thanks again for everyones help. Not only is this helping me to resolve my issue, but I am learning a ton about this car!

I would start by getting the actual code first and post it here. That is the absolute step one. The code will be a P followed by 4 numbers. If a generic code reader is used, the first number will be a 0, those are the generic OBD II codes. For example, you might get a P0300 which is a random misfire on all cylinders. This code is often interpreted as a bad Crankshaft Position Sensor but there are a lot of other reasons for this code.

I don't know about the SL2 engine, but on the SL1, dirt and grit can accumulate around the base of the spark plugs. I would advise you to look for this and if you see any, blow it out with compressed air before removing the plugs or else it will all fall into your combustion chambers.

Also, do not use any high performance or low resistance spark plug wires, they will mess up the computer by changing the characteristics of the spark. The ignition system is designed to expect a certain resistance of the wires which I think is around 2-4k ohms per wire. Any replacement wires must meet this spec. You do not necessarily need factory wires, just OEM spec wires. You can use Platinum, double platinum or Iridium plugs as long as they meet the specs. I use double platinum myself, but I don't like changing plugs and they are good for about 100k miles or more.

Mine have been in there since 08 and have just shy of 90k on them. My wiring is still the factory wires at 265k miles. I guess I have been lucky with those. I think using the long life plugs helps, the less you change the plugs, the less you pull, tug and flex the wires so the longer they last.

Thanks Keith,

I will do this all this evening and post results.

I picked up both the wires and plugs (the ones you mentioned) last night. Didnt get a chance to change them out, but will do that this evening when I get home. Ill get the codes first on the way home and report what they say.

Thanks again, been a huge help.