Have a 2000 SL1, I just bled the brakes in this pattern: RR, LR, RF, LF but it still won't pump up the brakes. No air was evident when bleeding and the master cylinder is completely full and it does not lose any fluid over time. The brake pedal engages in the last 10% of the stroke before that it's a sponge but it does engage and stop the car. Is it possible the brake booster is broken?

AlexT..............breaks are an important item on your car as you know. It does not sound as though you have a bad booster. When they go bad the pedel normally gets very HARD. Masters can leak (bypass the seal) on inside leaving no fluid evident on the outside of the unit. I'd just make a qick stop on the service drive of your nearset Saturn store and ask them to try the pedel and see what they think. Most brake pedels will not engauge at the top. Most don't start to produce stopping power untill the last 30% or so.


By the way


MERRY CHRISTMAS Edited by: sw2cam

Well AlexT, I beleive that all cars had an Anti-lock brake option by 2000. As with any brake system you should always start at the furthest calliper or wheel cylinder from the master cylinder, which you have done allready. Butif you haveAnti-lock you need to also bleed the actuator valve located near or on the master. There is a sequence and may be different with diff. years. I would recomend buying a manual to get the right sequence for your car. Also, how much brake pad do you have left? Brakes will seem soft and the pedal will travel further before brakes engage at 20-30% pad left. As far as the master sealgoing bad, your brakes will pump up, but when held will bleed off. There will also be evidence of fluid coming out the back side of the master(between master and booster.) If the plunger is bad inside the master, you would be able to pump them up to full brakes, but would also bleed back down if held. There may not be any fluid evedent.Hope this helps and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Edited by: answerman

2000SL1 has antilock brakes.Only one particular detail answerman,no-one ever said thathis paticular model had abs and traction control.
MERRY CHRISTMAS

PS: brakes are something you want to work without any doubts. So to sit here and try to get anyone to understand all the details of a breaking system would be futile. Breaks are to important a system to play with. Take the car to the people that know how to diagnose and repair the system. Spend yourtime andmoney once and get it done.Edited by: sw2cam

Saturn's S-Series sedans, the SL, SL1 and SL2, are redesigned for 2000. Changes include a restyled exterior, an all-new interior, extensive updates to the electronics and a new anti-lock braking system. According to Automotive.com, with all due respect.


And yes brakes are very important and if you don't have the common knowledge of a braking systemI would recomendtaking it to a professional.

Good answer ..................... man. AlexT get yourbrakes fixed. The internet is not the place to have brakes diagnosed.


I love being able to see everyones IP address at the top of each post they make.



MERRY CHRISTMAS

with all due respect ABS is not standard equipment on all 2000 and up SATURN S-CARS



Edited by: sw2cam

Thanks for the help guys. I've tried everything I have tools for. I've inspected the year old pads, rotors, shoes, and drums with nothing suspicious there. None of the lines appear damaged and there are no leaks anywhere that I can see. All the bleeder valves open and bleed fine. I've completely flushed the lines so the fluid is all new and the problem remains. The car went to the local Saturn dealership here where they charged me $125 to flush the lines again. Immediately I knew the brakes were no better even though they claim the problem has been resolved. 10 minutes ago my GF called me to let me know the car is probably not safe because the pedal needed to go to the floor even at 10-15 miles per hour to stop. There is no way to lock up the tires on this vehicle because there isn't enough stopping force.

This car may not be an SL1 (it isn't my car it's the little lady's) but I know for a fact it does not have ABS. Was ABS an option that year not a standard feature? If it helps to pinpoint the model the car has power windows and power mirrors along with a CD player. No sunroof though.

To be honest I'm not all that impressed with the quality of this car, maybe it's me just being frustrated but it uses about a quart of oil between 3000 mile changes, the transmission was replaced at 50,000 miles, and now it seems other things are going south at 70,000 miles on a 6 year old vehicle.

Any other words of wisdom? The car is going back to Saturn tomorrow morning.

Sounds like bad master cylinder.

What kind of brake fluid were/are you using? DOT-3?

As for other issues:

1) All S cars burn oil---eventually. 1 q at 70k sounds early but not uncommon.

2) Transmission at 50K? Did it have a leak that went undetected? How'd it die?

3) properly maintained S cars routinely last to 150-200K+ mi....keep the oil topped off and it should keep running....

Did you bleed the brakes yourself or did you have help? Unless you have speed bleeders or a pressure bleeding system, you probably got some air into the lines. I recommend picking up a set of speed bleeders and get the help of a friend and re-bleed the system agian.

If you have ABS make sure the system is in the "home" position. To do this, after you park the car where you want to work on it, turn the key to the "run" position without starting the engine for a few seconds and remove the key.

And to clarify a few of the posts above, not all Saturn S-Series had ABS. It was an option every year they were produced. Also the changes made in 2000 was that Saturn went to a rear drum ABS system rather than rear disc.

On my 95 SL1, I have mushy brakes and pedal goes quite far down before I get brakes when I take off in the morning or when the car's been sitting for abit. I usually have to pump the brakes a few times and then they come back. Doesn't really happen when I've beening driving thou.


Nothing's been done to the brakes other than changing the from rotors this past summer. This has been happening only for the last few weeks.

Well, just changed the master today and it's still doing it.[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img] So you guys say it's not the brake booster?

From what you described, the pedal goes almost to the floor and engages in the last 10% of travel. That would not be a booster. As SW2CAM stated earlier in this post, a bad booster would make the pedal very hard to push down, let alone, to the floor. A booster is operated off vacuum from the engine. If it looses vacuum, it will no longer assist in depression of pedal. Disconnect the vacume hose from the booster and try to depress the brake pedal and you will see what we are talking about.


However, a thought would be to check linkage between pedal and booster and/or to see if there is a push rod missing between booster and master cylinder plunger. If you put the new master in yourself, you should have bench bled it prior to installation. If you have not done this yet, that would give reason to why the brakes are still soft. To perform this you will need a bench bleeding kit. If you are not sure how to do thisthentake the car to a professional brake specialist to have the brakes bled. Not a dealer. A dealer is more expensive and less apt to finding problems. They like it when you have to come in three or four times to fix the same problem. No offense to any dealer mechanics, just the propaganda. And a last note, to review the problem;


1. Brakes going to floor barely engaging


2. No fluid evident anywhere


3. Brakes have good pads and shoes


4. Replaced Master cylinder


5. No change


The only logical explanation is that either there is still air in the system , or there is a push rod missing between booster and master.


Iown and run a small mechanic shop for the local people in my area and have had several cars that required several bleedings before all air is out of lines, even with a power bleeder.








Edited by: answerman

I had the master put in by a mechanic. He did bench bleed it but says he "didn't really like they way it bled" so you're doing it again Monday.


Ya...he did say it isn't the booster either. Good cause I don't want to buy it. [img]smileys/smiley1.gif[/img]We'll see how it goes Monday.

Oops, sorry Plasticmobile. I didn't check the user name before reply. Thought you were Alex-t. Either way, my post should help with both cases, and good luck with yours. I am sure you still have air in the system and just needs to be worked out. Sometimes driving the car for a couple days and having brakes re bled helps.

Well, we've found a consistent unusual thing with the brakes. The pedal goes almost to floor and lack of brakes happens ALWAYS when: I back up,go forward, then push the brakes to stop. Even the brakes are ok when I brake to stop from continuing to reverse. It does still happen occasionally while driving or going forward.

I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction if you have not had the master and all four wheel calipers/cylinders bled at least four times, but just a couple questions;


Have you had the brake padsreplaced recently? Does your car have drum brakes in rear? If these are both the case, it is possible that there may be an adjuster out of adjustment on the rear brakes. If too loose, your brakes may grab very well when reversing, but will allow excessive travel when going forward. Adjusting rear drum brakes can be performed by driving in reverse a shortdistanceand applying the brakes in short bursts, slightly more aggressive than normal braking. Repeat this a couple times. If there is still no difference then I am at a loss unless I am able to take a look at it in person. Hope this helps.

The brakes have been bled 3 times and master when it ws installed. I'm wondering how air could get in if nothing was done to them recently and this wasn't happening until a couple of months ago.


Pad's have not been replaced but rotors have. They were done this past summer. Drums in rear. Rear brakes have been adjusted twice but not with the method u described.

I would definitely check the shoes on rear for uneven wear or for looseness in assembly prior to the adjustment I described. Also make sure that it is possible for your particular car to have the brakes adjusted that way. As far as the air in the system, when you are braking in normal conditions, the fluid has contact from
the master to the calipers/cylinders by means of hydraulics. If air has been introduced to the system by a faulty master or other
means, the air will create a pocket and absorb the pressure from the
fluid, thus creating soft and mushy brakes. If there is air trapped in a bend or fitting, the fluid will travel past the air and not push it out when bleeding.

Now considering that it is intermittent I would check the components of the rear brakes first. Springs, Adjusters, condition of drums, etc. If the pads or shoes are worn, the fluid has to travel farther to get the pads/shoes to make contact with the stopping surface of rotors and drums, also creating a mushy brake.

Well the rear brakes have already been checked and adjusters have been taken out and cleaned and shoes are ok.


One thing that really hasn't been checked in depth are the fron pads, rotors and calipers. This is our next step. I guess they were bypassed thinking that it was the master right away. It goes in again tomorrow.[img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img]

You see.......pays to look at the small and cheaper stuff before going any farther. [img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img][img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img]Found the problem today. Was the front pads!! Pretty much fell out in pieces when the caliper was taken out. Never thought to look at those til now. The symptoms that it was having pointed to master but after realizing that it only happened after reversing first, that there might be something wrong with the front calipers/pads.


Happy now but I just wish that I/we could have found this in the beginning before spending around $200, not including the new pads on now. [img]smileys/smiley8.gif[/img][img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]


Oh and sorry AlexT for taking over your thread.Edited by: Plasticmobile

Glad to hear you found the problem. A day late and $200 short, but fixed, none the less.