A Lemon, Bad Luck, or is this Normal?
 

Hi All,
I bought a 2003 LW300 in August of 2016 - gorgeous car, great gas mileage, comfortable to drive.
The first month I had it, the ignition had to be replaced... tow bill and repair cost over $400. Ca-ching.
About a month later there was liquid on the passenger floorboard. I googled and found it could be either condensation, or heater core. When I took it in for an oil change, I asked them to check the drain plug - he said it was clogged and liquid drained out. Goody.

Not so, a couple of months later, more fluid on the floorboard and the defroster didn't work properly. Heater core. More ca-ching.
No more problems for a while, then last summer I started hearing a tic-tic-tic-tic-tic sound (but like a bird chirping) from the front passenger side wheel area. My mechanic said it was the wheel bearings. Brakes and bearings replaced. Ca-ching.
Only the next day, same noise. I took it back and told him. Know what he did? came out and spritzed the belt with WD-40 and the noise stopped. I didn't ask him, but I'm thinking "Okay. Did I just pay $300 for work I didn't need done?" The tic-tic continued for months, getting worse and then one day it just stopped all together and hasn't come back since. ???

New issue: I noticed that the low coolant light comes on fairly often, so I check it regularly. Last month it was down 3" in the reservoir, from the seam line. I fill it up. Every three to four days I do this. So, I take it in (also got a second opinion from another mechanic) was told it's the water pump. Of course, if you replace the pump you need to also replace the pulley and other doo-dads, oh, and the timing belt, too. $760 plus tax. Major Ca-Ching.
I realized this is half the book value of the car.

I need to mention too that when I first got the car the check engine and service engine lights came on. I took it to the dealer for diagnosis and was told the transmission was maxed out (paraphrasing) whatever that means. He said it could be the transmission, or it could be a bad sensor. I did nothing, the lights are still on, and there seems to be no problem with the transmission.
There's 147,000 miles on the car. I drive it about 20 miles/day. Oh, and the rims on the passenger side are bent...

So, I guess what I want to know is, if you were me, what would you do with this car?

I also have a 1998 Silverado that is beginning to show it's age. I'm thinking of trading both in on an upgrade.

Thanks for any advice.
Sandy
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...868c318f22.jpg

PS. Last year I had new Memphis speakers installed... $300.

Oh, and I think the previous owners were nursery workers and used it as a work vehicle - the upholstery and carpet is kind of cruddy. I tried to clean the seats myself, but I think that only made them worse. Asked a detail shop what they'd charge... $200 - and couldn't guarantee the stains would come out.

That's kind of what I was thinking, but then yesterday when I got in the drivers seat of my truck to go to work, it was wet - rain is leaking in from somewhere. Like I said, it's starting to show age. So, I thought, maybe it would be better to trade in both of them, before they are completely worthless, for another used truck.
I would much rather spend the $800 to repair the Saturn -I F- I can get another 3 to 5 years out of it.
Before all the repairs, I figured it would have paid for itself in gas saved, compared to what I am spending on the Silverado, in three years. Almost there.
BUT, if I can get $700 trade in for it, I think it would be better to get something newer.

The mechanic at the dealer told me since it was a limited production vehicle, and they don't make them any more, in the not too distant future some parts will be impossible to get and those that are available will be high-dollar since they will be hard to come buy.
Is this true?

Btw, the cruddy seats don't bother me, I put a blanket over the back seat and the front seats aren't all that bad.

True.
I also considered doing nothing. The mechanic at the dealership was very helpful and we discussed the car for a good 30 minutes. I could tell he was being diplomatic and not saying all he wanted to. The next day when I talked to him on the phone, and told him I'd decided to drive it as is until it won't drive any more, especially since the cost of repairs is half the value of the car, he agreed and said he thought that was a good option. He said to bring in a bottle of Stop Leak for coolant systems when I go pick it up and he would put it in or me no charge. He also said just check the water and oil often, keep them to acceptable levels, and it should drive like that for a while.
What do you think of this option?

Btw, the first time they did the pressure test, it showed nothing wrong with the water pump. He said they had to run it hot before it showed results.

No, haven't had the work done yet - been trying to decide if the car is worth it. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
The $800 bill includes replacing the timing belt, along with the water pump.
I'm sort of confused about the water pump issue... the water pump went out on my truck a few years ago - on a ten mile trip to town. All of a sudden it was running hot and the heater didn't work. Went straight to Auto Zone and he said it was the water pump. Took it to the shop the next day and that's what it was.
The Saturn isn't running hot. Honestly, I have doubts the problem is with the water pump.
Could it be a leaky hose somewhere from when they replaced the heater core last year?

"Trade it as-is or fix and drive for a while and recover some equity. "
Sounds simple enough, doesn't it?
Lol
I'll see if the dealer has anything to trade for, if not, I'll look some other places before I bring it home, or get it fixed.

They have a 2005 Silverado on their website, but, sheesh!, it only gets 16-20 mpg. I don't need another gas-guzzler.

Thank you for your advice. I really appreciate it.

No, not easy... I feel like I'm on Let's Make a Deal and Monty Hall is waiting for me to pick between doors #1, #2, and #3... and there's really no way of knowing which is the best decision.
Another thing to consider is, if I spend $1000/year for the next 6 years on the Saturn, that's what I'd be paying for another used car if I traded this one in - a used car that might need as many repairs as this one, only this one is paid for.
Times like this I wish my daddy was still around. .. he always knew the right thing to do. 8-)

So, the other option is to do nothing, drive it as is, add oil and water as needed. If I understand what you said earlier, it won't last long at all this way since coolant dripping on the timing belt will cause the timing belt to go bad pretty soon... and then we're back to square one: replace the timing belt and water pump for $800... oh, and risk other maor damage to the engine, right?
It seems to be settled. Bite the bullet and get the Saturn fixed.

I'm just spoiled. I've had very good luck with all my previous vehicles, none needing any major repairs. I traded my used 66 Valiant (cost $1,000 drove it ten years) for a used 93 Escort (cost $3000 drove it ten years), traded that for the 98 Silverado (paid $6000, still going strong).
My luck was bound to run out eventually.:rolleyes:

Thank you SO much for helping me with this.

I have a 43 year old daughter who doesn't listen to me... I think I didn't really "grow up" until I was past 40, so there's hope for your daughter yet... maybe mine too. :)

Oh, one more question... generally speaking, who would be the best choice for doing the work - a local private mechanic, or the mechanic at the dealership?
Similar estimates from each.

Sounds like you're confirming my suspicions. I'll go with the mechanic at the dealer. I was very impressed with him, his honesty, and how he took the time to explain the issue to me.

Thanks, again!

If you can do any of the work yourself, like replacing interior parts such as seats, carpet, etc., Sandy, there's a large Pull-A-Part yard in Nashville off Centennial Blvd. They used to have a LOT of Saturns. Seats ran about $25 each. Carpet and plastic panels are very cheap. I even got a head liner for a 99 Grand Caravan I had for $15. You can just go to pullapart.com and type in the location you're interested in and check the inventory of the yard. It'll tell you what year cars they have and what row in the yard they're on. The only drawback is that it's a crap shoot whether you find what you want or not. I used to drive 170 mile round trips only to strike out on specific items. They DON'T track any inventory other than the cars.

I'm not sure where you are, but they have a location in Knoxville too. Knoxville yard shows to have 3 L series cars. 2000 model on row 122, 2001 on row 133 and a 2002 on row 109. I'm not sure, but THINK the seats are all interchangeable. Andy might know.

2005 Silverado. One lives across the street from me. Stay away. They have several manufacturer confirmed design flaws which are a pain in the ass to address and some are $$$ non DIY stuff. This seems to be the case for the 2000 ish MYs up though when they redid the truck in the late 2000's. Service dog. Same for equivalent truck across the GM line.

140K seems a long time to wait before timing bet change, the fact that your dealer didn't mention that is scary. Or I'm wrong. Andy will know,

Every month you don't have a car payment of $350 to me justifies 350/month of repairs if keeping the vehicle in good running condition is (in my mind of the rest of the car is now sound.

Water pumps fail
Wheel bearings fail (though misdiagnosed, it happens. They are sealed for life. Can't regrease them.
Ignitions fail. If it was previously owned by a day care, it had probably been cycled twice as much as the avg 140K vehicle. Things just wear out.

Did they check for possible head gasket starting to fail? You often don't get much warning but do you smell a sickly sweet smell at the exhaust pipe once the car is warmed up? Oil in the coolant/coolant in the oil?
If they see a puddle under the engine area then indeed water pump sounds like ot may be the issue.

A for check engine light, go to autozone or similar and have the codes read for FREE. Post them here Pxxxx format please and that may give us more insight as to what plagues your car.

Definitely at the pivotal point in ownership of this car.
Trying to adivise you on the decision as best we can.

For perspective, I have a 97 and 95 SC2, both of which will be driven into the ground. (about 259K each. Things that should have failed still haven't, so I won't be surprised when they do.
If you decide to run into the ground that is a major factor as to whether to put the money into repairing it. Thus justifying the mathematical example above.
If you are keeping it till it dies

Thank you SO much for the info!
I'm between Nashville and Knoxville, closer to Nashville but still, about 160 miles round trip. If I were good at working on cars, it would definitely be worth the drive, but I'm not. I will keep it in mind though - you never know when I might get desperate. :p

I just called the dealer and told them to go ahead with the repair.
So, fair warning, it looks like I'm going to be a regular here on the forum. :D

We like regulars here. The people that come and ask for advice, get their cars fixed and then never tell us are the ones that piss us off. Changing seats and other interior pieces are not difficult things to do. I'm 61 years old and still do all of my own maintenance and I'm disabled. Two brain surgeries and a couple of bad discs in the lower back have slowed me down, but not stopped me. If I can do it, I'm sure you can. Those items are just a matter of removing four bolts per seat, folding them and pulling them out. They even have wheel barrows you can use to transport the larger, heavier items, such as seats. But just like the parts, the wheel barrows are on a first come, first served basis.

Yeah, that's pretty rude. You guys are so nice and helpful, even if I had got rid of the Saturn I would have made an attempt to hang out in the Off-topic forum. :D
I'll be 61 this year... I think you have more confidence in my mechanical ability than I do... but, we'll see. Baby steps. I'll pick something small first, like the headliner that's coming loose above the driver's side window.

I find the easiest way to overcome the jitters associated with something I've never done/attempted is to just get in there, work slowly and methodically until you wreck it.

You then learn more about how you SHOULD have approached it as you devise a way to and successfully repair whatever you wrecked.

Therefore, on your second try, you know at least one approach you should not take.
It is possible to find unique and different ways to wreck stuff, but unless you have the engine opened, the parts to repair whatever you wrecked can usually be found at a junkyard.

The key point is that it's YOUR old car, long since paid off, and if you wreck something on it, SO WHAT? As long as it is driveable and passes inspection (if needed), and is safe to drive, it's YOUR ride and you can wreck stuff as you learn the ropes and you will find that it is not a big deal. As time passes, you will wreck less.and less.

Self confidence is half the battle. Just make sure you know what order you need to do things in, follow the directions using the appropriate tools, and review it before you start.
If you get hung up, post here, and after we're done making fun of you (jk) we'll help figure out a path forward

Derf is right. And a headliner is not a simple task on cars. You have to remove all of the inside plastic trim from around the windows, the a, b and c pillars and then the top seat belt anchor bolts. Sun visors and rear view mirror and dome light. Trust me, seat replacement is much, much easier than the headliner. But as stated by my buddy, derf, it's YOUR car and if you mess something up, so what? The key is to be patient and take your time. Take pictures of what things look like before your start and refer back to them when reassembling.

So... the saga continues.
Haven't heard anything about the car all week so I called this morning. They just got the parts today. :eek:

You should remind them that a courtesy phone call does a lot for a business to retain customers.

I might tell that to the dealer manager - after - I get my car back.

Squeaky wheel gets the oil. If you hear nothing by wed, make a surprise visit to the shop after hours and see if your car is on the lot or on a lift.

Then call the next day and ask them to summarize what they've completed to date and when. Be incredibly polite and get upset about nothing. Ask at the end "so it's been up on the lift all week, yes?

Nonconfrontational fact finding mission that lets you see who you are dealing with. Do not confront them about anything. Just fact finding. Stop by that night and locate your car.

There can be situations where they will do repairs in stages and move a vehicle off of a lift well seals dry Etc. So this is not a foolproof test. But it's pretty representative

Sorry for my ignorance, but what would be the point of this fact-finding mission?
Sounds reasonable to me that if they didn't get the parts until Thursday, or Friday, and the shop is closed Saturday, it could take until Tuesday for the car to be ready to go home.
Am I missing something?

Ummm.
I calculated the number of days to get parts. I neglected to factor in February only has 28 days. I was thinking this dealership took one week to get your parts. I thought that was ridiculously long.

I therefore thought they were lying when they said they just got the parts. This confirmed the obvious Theory that they had the parts before then but were dragging their feet working on your car. There is no basis for this other than my paranoia, which is well-known on this ste, quite entertaining at times.

Reconnaissance mission was to confirm my paranoid conspiracy theory that they are lying and are sitting on their hands.

Paranoia has its uses in life. This was not one of them. Apologies for the tangents.

I'm really good with tangents and droning on. As you can see.

Apologies

:D No apology necessary. I tend to have episodes of paranoia, going off on wild tangents, and droning on myself... we should get along perfectly!

I agree, a week to get parts, in this day and age, is ridiculous. But, what are ya gonna do? I've reached the age where it's often better to say, "Oh well" rather than pick a fight. At my age, fights and arguments are way too exhausting. :o
besides, I have my Silverado to drive while they are pussy-footing around.
Now, if I was carless and depending on others to tote me around and back and forth to work... that would be worth a fight. ;)

Hope you're enjoying your Sunday. I'm spending my day off trying new recipes. :)

Sorry for not getting back sooner... been a rough week. Thanks for asking.:)
Short story: Yes. Got the car back Thursday.

Long story: They hadn't called me in two weeks, I called them last Thursday and was told they just got the parts in. So, again, I called them Thursday morning only this time I asked for the general manager. I told no one has called me in two weeks and could he please find out what's going on with my car. He said sure, put me on hold, and walked back to the shop. When he got back on the phone, he said, "Would you be happy to know your car is ready to go?" I said sure, but why didn't they call me to tell me it was ready? ... are you ready for this?... He said, "They just now got it finished." Really? Miracle of miracles, they finished working on the car the exact moment I called? It's more believable they were lying and no one bothered to call me to let me know it was ready.

So, I have a friend drop me off at the dealership (btw, this is a Chevy dealer, not Saturn). He leaves and I go in to pay. The guy in the shop hands me the bill. :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: $400 more than the quote.
I took a deep breath, pulled out my phone to call my friend to come back to get me, and handed it back to him and said that's not the price we agreed on - if you had told me this amount I certainly would not have agreed to it.
He looked it over, fiddled with his computer, handed it back - with the original amount - and simply said, "Someone made a math error."
I handed him my credit card, he gave me my receipt, I said thank you, and walked out the door.

WTF is wrong with people? Are there no competent, honest mechanics left on the planet, or did I just happen to find two crooks?

The car seems to run fine (was running fine before) and one of the indicator lights is no longer on constantly, either the service, or check engine light.
They told me they changed the oil... they didn't change the window sticker and the "change oil" light still comes on. Is there a way for me to tell if they actually did change the oil?

Idk either.
Look at the coolant reservoir... low fluid is the only reason I brought it in i the first place... and it's STILL low!
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They may have drained the oil, saved it, and put it back in when they were done. Look at your invoice and look at the part where it says CS or customer States blah blah blah blah blah as the reason for bringing it in. You can then gauge what they did based on what they reported they found. The General don't care attitude towards actually telling you your car was done which you can tell when it was really done by when the invoice was run hopefully there is a date on it that is not the same day you picked it up. Or maybe they just let it sit around for a couple weeks because it wasn't important enough to do unless you called and bitched about it
Anyway there should be a line code for each different repair they did whether it says remove and replace R&R such and such and the part amount and labor amount, you should be able to walk your way through the invoice to see what actions they took. The fact that they did not top off your coolant is somewhat silly. If they replaced the water pump they would have had to open the cooling system. They may have recycled your coolant that drained and put it back in the reservoir. And after they burped the system to get out the air they simply never topped it off because they are jackasses. See if there's a charge for coolant. Dexcool On the invoice. Any dealership that does oil changes, the texts are programmed to do the stickers and it would take 10 seconds to look up how to clear the oil light on your Saturn. Your oil does not look brand-new to me. Check the invoice for an oil filter and oil. Probably 5 W 30. which means they charged you for it not necessarily that they did it.

If you continue to lose coolant, take it back and ask them to tell you why. Tell them you are not paying for a diagnostic of their own work. You've already paid for a diagnostic. If what they diagnosed was incomplete or wrong that is their problem. No matter what they tell you, make it clear you are not paying for another diagnostic. Do not make it clear you are not going back there which you are not because you have a brain. Don't get an oil change until after you visit them again. Don't make an appointment just show up. Do it later in the day if you can when they cannot say they are too busy. From early morning until noon is Crush time. After that it thins out.

Ask him for the parts removed from your vehicle that were replaced. By law they are required to give them to you. They will probably try to tell you they are already disposed of. Tell them to take you back to the dumpster behind the dealership and check. Go with them. Even if you have no idea what you are looking at or for. That dumpster takes weeks to fill up. Your parts are in there and they are legally yours. If the dumpster is pretty much empty they may be telling the truth. If it is not empty they will probably resist taking you back there citing some safety crap. Remind them that is outside and that if they refused to fetch Your Parts you will do so yourself. This is all posturing. Their obligation may end when you sign the final invoice and pay I don't know but based on how lackadaisical they are and have been about the entire thing, if your car starts losing coolant again, then it's time to take the lead in this dance. They will love that you have returned if the original problem wasn't fixed because they assume you are stupid enough to Put more money into it with them which you are not. This is how they suck people dry. People that are too lazy to look up how to turn off your oil change light are probably also too lazy to change your oil.

Paranoid? Maybe. But there is so much bull crap that goes on behind the scenes that sometimes you have to call them on things as much as you can. They will probably win out in the end, but every minute you distract one of the techs to look at a dumpster or the service manager to speak to him, you are wasting their time and therefore costing them money.

To be perfectly clear I​​​​ only believe this to be a Justified strategy when you are fairly certain you have been screwed.

If they tell you your car is leaking coolant from somewhere else, ask them why they never told you that. If they say it wasn't leaking coolant when it left, ask them why they did not do a pressure test on your coolant system before you left because it obviously it was leaking. It is true the coolant level May settle after it runs a bit but if it came back that way to you that's just wrong.

Places like this need to lose money when screwing people like yourself. You will not win. The point is to make sure it costs them something to compensate for what they have done to you or not done for that matter. I have never gone this far, but I have considered going into the waiting room and throwing a tantrum just to lose them business. But I have never done it because I have never been able to prove that above 95% certainty I had been screwed.
It's actually kind of fun to put these people that day in and day out rip people off on the defensive. They have there guard ready, for certain things, but not for people searching dumpsters. Most people don't know they are by law entitled to the parts that were replaced. Bring a cardboard box with you of decent size and walking with it when you first meet up with them. They will likely have no idea why.

I am not a mean person by Nature. Nor am I terribly vindictive. But over the years of moderating this forum, I have been exposed to so many rip offs scams and horror stories and actually prevented several that I have no patience left 4 people that cheat others simply because they think they can by tossing around technical terms and dancing around the law.

Your choice