2005 Ion3 - sputtering and low RPM
 

i found this related thread: https://www.saturnforum.com/forum/saturn-l-series-sedans-wagons-26/lw300-problems-7317/
after searching fault codes that a repair shop found today on my car - P1516 and P2101. These codes point toward throttle issues or accelerator pedal sensor or similar. i started driving to work this a.m. (20 degrees in Dallas), and reached a stop sign about 1.5 miles from home and when i tried to accelerate the car acted like someone pulled 3 of my plug wires off. Max RPM is now ~1500, top speed from that point is about 20-25mph. flashers on, then i drive to local Kwik Kar (they're a good shop). They notice the exhaust was cutting out and when i told him my check engine light had come on, he said "take it to a muffler shop - you have a clogged cat converter." Muffler shop i use is also good / honest. They read the codes and gave the exhaust system a clean bill of health.

3rd stop, a diagnostic full svc repair shop across the street. They checked it out & gave me the 2 fault codes above, and then stated that since the car was cranking with low voltage from their diags, that i should replace the battery. They charge $90 for diags and $230 to install a good battery. I am picking up the car in a couple hours and will pay the $90 & leave. Now researching what type battery i need & will go buy it myself. This battery is at least 4 years old, so i have no issue replacing.

Anyone else have this happen? I am banking on the diag shop being correct & hoping the low voltage is disabling some throttle capabilities from the computer. Will post back later with update.

I haven't had that happen, but suspect you can find a good battery for a lot less than that price, so good for you. When's the last time you did a good tune up on it, cleaned the throttle body and have you ever used a fuel injector cleaner in your gas? I can highly recommend the Techron brand. You can purchase it at your local Walmart cheaper than the parts stores sell it. I do catch a two for one sale on it from time to time at my local Advance Auto Parts store and then I'll buy it there.

I have been having the exact same problem with my 05 Saturn Ion3 recently. I was away for 3 weeks and left my car in freezing weather, and when I came back it was sputtering a lot with low RPM with some exhaust problems. Hardly ever have problems with my car and everything was good before it got cold and I left for 3 weeks.

Have you found a solution to your problem? I'm going to check the throttle body and bought a fuel injector cleaner. Did this solve your problem?

Sounds like you guys may have some water in your gas. You can get some water removal stuff at your friendly auto parts store. I'd also recommend a good throttle body cleaning and some Techron.

Youngest Daughter came home a few days ago saying her 2007 2.2L ION was loosing power while driving, also said it was sputtering. So I "CLEANED"! the throttle body. All is good..

You the man, Rj!

Most common thing modern cars need so it's the first thing I did......cleared the codes light didn't return car runs fine. 106,000 on the car and it's the only thing thats been done other than oil changes. That said she told me the drivers door does not lock or unlock electronically, key only. Could be an open circuit or bad actuator. We have different days off and work different hours so I'll look at it when I look at it.

Guys, sorry late getting back. thanks for the feedback. I replaced the battery since it was 4 years old and since fault codes were present even later that day per the diag shop. So, i bought a battery (NAPA legend 7575). removed old battery and cleaned up the trunk a bit (no corrosion so good there), waited about an hour hoping this would clear any codes, then installed the new battery. We have had only warm weather in Dallas since then, so i can't be sure that cured the issue. But i've had smooth driving ever since w new battery. Check engine light is off :)
I like your idea here, and yes it's time for tune up & throttle body cleaning. Sunday, i added ~ 6oz Seafoam to oil crankcase in prep for changing it since my oil life system message came on a few days back (about 6.5k since last oil chg). But, i will purchase some Seafoam spray or something i find at the store that will clean the throttle body. thank you! i also have some B12 Chemtool fuel cleaner handy so will pour that in my gas tank. i will buy the Techron next time. If i become brave, i may wait to do any throttle / fuel cleaning until we drop below freezing again ... just to prove out whether it could've been the low voltage condition causing my problem. Hope the best for you guys, i'll post back if i learn anything else.

Since it seems to be doing okay right now, Dennis, why don't you wait until it gets cold again, like you said? I'm curious at to whether it's temperature related or if it was actually a low voltage issue too. Won't hurt to wait a little while, will it?

Okay, it happened again. same exact location as the first time car stalled after leaving the house on Jan 7th. Symptoms a bit different this time - no sputtering or low rpms. Car just died ... stalled while trying to accelerate from a stop sign, and i pulled off on the grass. tried to restart a couple times but nothing. Turned off everything, pulled key out of cylinder lock ... waited about a full minute and just enjoyed the cold 25 degree weather for a bit. This time it started right up, and took off with no sputtering. so only thing different from Jan 7th is that the rpms are normal and power normal - no sputtering or hesitating. It didn't die the rest of the 19 miles to work, and when i started the car to go home this afternoon, no problems at all. But check engine light is on and fault codes are same (P1516 and P2101).

Bought a can of Seafoam spray and will be cleaning intake / throttle body soon as possible. I think i'll just disconnect battery for awhile after the cleaning. that seemed to clear the codes last time. will post back soon i hope.

Today i started to disassemble the air intake from the throttle body just enough to get the cleaner tube from the Seafoam can directed into the throttle body. ended up the Air Duct body came off and much for my entertainment, i got to watch about 3 oz of yellow mustardy goop mixed with lots of moisture drip out. i then took the air intake hose, the Air Duct, and the bypass hose going into the crankcase completely off. spent the next hour or so cleaning the air duct body.

photo of air duct:
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps4ab37208.jpg
View is looking into the duct body and you can see the clogged baffle holes

Another of air duct:
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps686c6d7d.jpg
Shows the moisture and goop build up inside the duct airway

Finally, here's the Air Intake hose feeding between Air Filter housing and Air Duct body:
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psea90bfc1.jpg
Moisture inside but the buildup is more oily and less like mustard

So, I used diesel fuel in a spray bottle to degrease the air duct body's internals. cleaned all the pieces up with rags and then blew everything out with compressed air. Re-assembled and test drove with no issues. will do the Seafoam spray when i get more time

Curious if anyone else has seen this buildup & what it is. Do i have a clogged valve somewhere that's causing blowback into the air intake hose ... along with water in my gas? or could this be related to the 15% ethanol we are forced to purchase with our fuel in Dallas? I also see some of this yellow mustard goop and moisture when i pop the oil cap to add oil.

I'd suggest you check your PCV system along with the PCV valve. That looks to me like you're not getting the proper ventilation the crankcase needs. BUT, keep in mind I'm not a mechanic.

2005 Ion 3 PCV system clogged
 

bumping this thread. the situation is still the same as back in Jan 2014. I believe this could be related to colder weather & maybe even rain/humidity - not sure? Last week, i added Berryman Fuel treatment in gas tank (8oz), then filled up with gas. then i sprayed Seafoam spray entire can into throttle body intake while neighbor held RPM at ~ 1000 to 1500. I took apart the intake (large plastic housing with baffles inside, plus sm vent hose going into valve cover, plus large intake hose) cleaned all parts with degreaser & let dry. even after that, i still have symptom of rough idle occasionally at stop lights. occasional engine dies but restarts. oil looks normal / don't suspect coolant seepage or fluid interactions at this point. just moisture buildup turning into yellow goop. goop present underneath oil cap, and obviously in air intake & PCV vent hose. maybe this car doesn't like 10% ethanol from gas pump in wintertime? Here are more photo links:
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psnkd0wdtu.jpg
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psyr97vigw.jpg
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...pssguituxd.jpg
i did some research and found out that this 2.2L Ecotec engine has no PCV valve. See below info i found on another forum while searching Ion moisture & PCV:
Here is another bit of info from a different forum (keep trying, it was giving me a "server busy" msg, but you can find this same thread by searching "Ecotec PCV test"): SaturnFans.com Forums

Removing cam / valve cover next and will post back photos of what i find. if anyone's had this same experience, i'd love to hear what you tried, what worked / didn't work.

2005 Ion 3 PCV system clogged
 

so, i was able to get the valve cover removed. I also checked the large air intake hose going from air filter past MASS airflow sensor into the throttle body housing. I dumped about 6 oz clear watery fluid out of that hose & housing as i removed them together today. This is similar to what i found a week ago; just not nearly as bad. Last week, was the yellow mustard goop heavy buildup. but i suspect by cleaning, i've done little or nothing to solve WHY the moisture keeps coming back. root cause TBD. one hope is that there is an orifice (part of the PCV system as described in previous post earlier today) that is hidden but integral to the valve cover. if so, maybe soaking the whole valve cover in a vat overnight will clean it & restore its normal function. i'll be taking it to a shop Monday to do that. Here are links to photos of valve cover, cams & gears & cyclinder head. One photo of valve cover includes the PCV vent tube. A short hose connects this to the throttle body housing, and this tube was very clogged last week:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...pst3yvhq55.jpg
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psjk0tmulg.jpg
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psrr4fgpck.jpg
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psu2ikxbwq.jpg

I also have a question: in link below i show my oil cap. this seems poor design. Moisture can seep into the valve cover through this wobbly cap mount. notice i can tilt it with my hand. should i RTV it to seal it up?

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...psmjqqyu7i.jpg

From the description you gave above and the thread you referenced above, it sounds like the "PCV passages" in the intake manifold gasket are clogged w crap, and that you need to remove the intake manifold gasket, clean the passages, and reassemble. I find it interesting that no one mentions a need to REPLACE the intake manifold gasket, as these are not often reused. In the end, based on what you find, it may actually be easier to replace it.


There were also comments about the possibility that internal passages in the crankcase which lead to the intake manifold and gasket could be plugged. Only way to find out is to clean gasket passages, reassemble, and see what happens. There may be ways to clean out blocked PCV passages from the crankcase o the intake manifold -- but I do not know what they are

Thanks, Derf. i picked my valve cover up from the mechanic shop after they soaked it overnight. it looks a lot better now; but i don't have gasket for it yet. probably be the weekend or next week before i can get back to work on the car. i've been reading more & also talked with my mechanic. He suggested not to worry so much with trying to find source of moisture and focus on the rough idle & stalling issue. he did agree with your post that there are likely some clogged passages in the ventilation system. i'm hoping that since that mysterious PCV orifice that no one can see inside the valve cover is now clean. :rolleyes: and i am hoping that will be the end of the rough idle. as far as the moisture & yellow goop, my mechanic says he occasionally sees that same issue - usually on cars with poor or less than ideal crankcase ventilation. He said if i drive the car for several hours non-stop it would most likely vent out. i only drive 18-20 miles to work, then shut off & drive about the same route home with a couple stops sometimes.

i tried removing the intake manifold but ran out of time over the weekend. also i ran out of an easy way to remove said manifold on this 2.2L. i thought it would come off easier than the 2.0L engines mentioned in my Chilton manual; but i may end up having to unbolt the A/C compressor or somehow get the A/C pressure line shifted out of the way. that line plus my oil dipstick are mainly what's in the way. i may just leave the manifold alone for now and see if the ventilation system is better just with valve cover being soaked. i'll post back in a few days.

Rough Idle turned cylinder misfire
 

i cleaned up my throttle body really well with it removed & used wet vac to suck out the 3-4 oz of mustard goop that was at the bottom crevices of my intake manifold. Got my valve cover very clean, and installed with new gasket. I got the Fel-Pro gasket kit from O'Reilly (VS50596R) for less than $30 that included the openings for the spark plugs. fit great.

Running again. drove to work Tuesday & Wednesday, but same symptoms. got much worse today & i saw my check engine light flashing at same time as the engine starting coughing and car actually shook. It's like the engine is fuel-starved when this happens. Shop pulled code P0300 (cylinder misfire - random). not a specific cylinder. at least i'm getting further along.

Next try will be to replace the ignition coil or maybe the ignition coil module ... or both (never has been touched on this car). plugs were replaced at around 100k. parking this thing for now, as driving with misfire may cause damage to catalytic converter i'm told.

I have a theory about the flashing cel. It flashes to indicate a condition that will cause cat damage, I have read that. Unburnt fuel causes cat damage not lean but rich. Bad spark will lead to rich exhaust. If the light flashes long enough the pcm will shut off the injector to the non firing cylinder. Of course the pcm has to identify the offending cylinder.
My car did this same thing, it identified #6 and would shut the injector down. The car would have a dead miss until a key off cycle rest. I could make the car missfire with the throttle. I replaced the front three plugs which are the even cylinders on my car. I moved two plug boots to different locations just in case it wasn't the plugs.

Now for your crankcase ventilation issue, you can clean the air supply hose all you want and it will not solve your problem. The purpose of the vacuum bleed is to pull filtered air through the crankcase and burn the oil vapor and remove moisture. Since your vacuum bleed is plugged, the moisture and vapors get pushed into the air breather by crankcase pressure. This a very European design, Mercedes has done this for decades. The Ecotec engines both the v-6 and the four cylinder versions are Opel designed.

P0300 cylinder misfire is fixed
 

sorry, i thought i posted back on this but just got busy. wanted to let everyone know that i bought both the ignition coil module as well as the coil pack itself from Rock Auto. the casing on my coil pack was all cracked. installed both at same time, but am about 90% certain the coil pack module was bad. A friend helped me do a test on the module with a test light he had and 1 of the 2 coil packs was showing as not firing. sorry i don't have more info; but he found a youtube video on a Saturn ion coil pack test. it was very advanced and about 30 mins long. was good info though, enough for us.
running great now & has been since February. fault code reset and cured.

I suspect that the occasional mustard goop in the intake may be something i have to clean out every once in awhile - esp. during the wet & somewhat cold winters we have in Dallas area. we have wet & cold, then next day will be dry and warm. probly great climate for mustard goop growth combined with 10% ethanol in gas. hope this all helped someone.

Thanks for the update, glad your car is running well.

If you do much short trip driving, the engine doesn't really get up to operating temp long enough to get rid of moisture in the crank case. That could be a reason for the "mustard" you see.

I think I have the same issue
 

How did you clean the throttle body?

You're asking a guy who posted that 5 years ago.
It's possible he could still be on the forum.
But Rj has left us.
19Bonestock88 should be by to answer soon.