bad oil leak from head gasket?
 

In December 2017, I drove literally 90+ mph, trying to make it to hospice as my mother was taking her last breath. RPMs about 4200 for 20 min straight.

A week or so later, during a routine fluids check, I was down a full quart of oil. The only time in 70,000 mi on this reman engine any significant oil has vanished. I've needed a cam cover gasket for several years and got that replaced, figuring I was pushing oil past the gasket.

Last weekend, I drove from Atlanto from Pittsburgh 660 mi. I want through 2 quarts of 10w30.

After taking it back to the mechanic who did the valve cover gasket, he commented that as soon as you replace the weakest gasket, the next week is gasket will start to leak if it is already compromised. He said it appeared to be leaking from the head gasket on the side of the engine facing the front of the car. I believe him because I looked and that is where the oil was still leaking. l actually got some in my mouth.

I pulled the plugs. None were oil-soaked. I did a compression test wide open throttle cold and got 195 + 200 cross the across the cylinders evenly. I did not bother doing a hot test.

In my experience and that of others, that S car dohc engines start burning oil slowly and the consumption increases. However mine was quite sudden. Given that the head gasket is now leaking oil, I am wondering if the head gasket was already compromised back in December from my crazy driving and did not seem to leak much driving around town.

However driving at 3200 RPM for 3 hours at a time seems to be pushing oil.

I find it hard to believe that I could freeze all four oil control rings at the same time that severely although they were all exposed to the same oil and same temperatures in December.
No oil fouled plugs, no misfires, no smoke out exhaust, no codes.

My question is does the head gasket oil leak sound like a reasonable explanation or am I missing something? As in am I way off? I will need to drive this vehicle the 660 mi back and I am thinking if I keep up with the oil, the lower end should stay lubricated. I am not losing any coolant. Nor is anything milkshaking.

The top-end is not making any noise and neither is the timing chain. The car runs quite smoothly at idle. My biggest concern would be reduced oil to the Head. Am I on track or off base?

Pcv valve outputs back to intake and is mixed with air fuel and goes back to the intake manifold. I'll check that first.

Sorry -- I did not describe the full PCV system properly

Here's the setup under the hood.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...fba0d3af9b.jpg


PCV valve itself vents directly back towards the intake. But there is another unmetered line connected to the intake air ducting between the throttle body and the air cleaner.
And of course, it slopes downhill towards the air filter. So I understand that if the PCV is not properly relieving the pressure, it's being relieved by pushing oil or vapor to the intake ducting. The combination of the unmetered positive pressure and the engine vac pulling on that port as the intake air heads to the throttle body make for a mess if the PCV is malfunctioning.

I want to check right now but it's 4 am here, my niece and her a hole husband finally had their impending divorce blowout encounter, and I get to pick up the pieces and write up the mess tomorrow

oh, that would be today.

Thank you

That's what I did on the way down. Doesn't help to pull 350 lb of tools up and down those W Va

I bought a new PCV and hose set in case one is crapped up inside. Mine are well past their prime. I bought an AC Delco PCV as the aftermarkets are known to pass too much oil to start with.
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THey've reached agreement pending one clause in the settlement agreement that defers the entire decision to the Judge since his child support offer is absurdly low.

I have put almost $2k into what is legally still his pickup truck without so much as a thank you (she uses it and it will be hers but is in his name)

Ironically, he tried to move out last night and the starter went down hill. I got it started but it only stats warm on every 3rd ign turn.
I don't have time to pull of the intake manifold to ge to it so the work is getting done as we speak

Pulled old.pvc valve. Definitely crudded up internally. Compared to an identical ac Delco replacement PCV,.the innards.were.gummed.up and inhibiting.full motion of the inner portion. Still had some rattle to it but not full motion and not unless you shook it hard. I know this is not a definitive test.

There were traces of oil in the upper (output) port of the PVC. The air filter and ducting showed no oil whatsoever.

Based on the range in which the PVC valve was gummed up, I don't believe it was ever closing all the way at low rpm (high vac pressure, and was sticking open at higher RPMs (lower vac pressure) but was open and sticking open too far, allowing too much vapor back into the Mani to burn. I'll do a throttle body cleaning and spray way in there and through the inlet and let it drain out and hopefully take a pic. Won't know if it is the complete solution till I start bsck or maybe I'll find some interstate and do a test run.

This is what happens when you allow your mind to focus on the symptoms and draw the worst case scenario (me) without considering ALL of the possibilities (Andy). I am a very analytical person by nature and academic training. That does not mean I am perfect at diagnosing vehicle problems.

I have been trying to follow follow Andy's lead by considering ALL the possibilities first. I'm getting better (at least I think I am), but I have a long ways to go.

So, did the PCV valve replacement work for you derf. Or have you tested it? I generally replace the PCV valve when I do every other tune up. They're cheap enough that even if the old one rattles, a new one is just good preventative maintenance.

Well, I've been busy at the house taking care of pre listing shayt, like cleaning, doing 7 years of landscaping maintenance in 2 days, relaying pavers making a walkway to a lawsuit they were so f'd up.
Setting up house powerwashing, Orkin to kill the 3 billion ants on the property.(my lord I have never seen so many ants. These SOB's bite or I'm getting chewed on by spiders I can't see.

I replaced the entire PVC "system". PVC valve (AC Delco). PCV hose to intake, and crankcase vent output hose to fresh air intake before throttle body. My hoses were well past death but I remember trying to find them 10 years ago and could not.

I am now thoroughly confused. The airflow is backwards.

I'm getting pressure pulses of air coming OUT the orifice that connects to the air intake piping: that should be PULLING IN fresh air, no?
The pressure pulses get stronger out that orifice with increasing RPM. This backwards flow would indeed push oil into the air ducting system -- but there isn't any there.

I cleaned the throttle body including the long piece (intake plenum? never knew what it was called, still don't) and the port where the hose from the top of the PCV valve to (mystery part name after throttle body). I did not remove it from the car but doused it internally with throttle body cleaner.. Throttle plate not gunked up. IAT fine.

Since the air output increases at the supposed input at high RPM, and it puffs air out the input at idle, that there is something fundamentally wrong here.
As I understand it, at idle, engine vac is high, PCV "sucked" almost closed. At higher RPMs with the throttle plate further open, lower engine vac and PCV should partially open to vent pressure, sending blowby to be reburned.

If the flow through the system Is backwards, then either the engine vac situation is not as it should be ( no of course I didn't bring my tester to fix up the damn house), or there is something funky going on somewhere.

The car drives fine as is.

I have a spare PCV valve (I always order two of things I'll need later). I'll put that in and see what gives.
Parts as spec'd from RockAuto. They don't seem to make the original anymore.


I DID just have my valve cover gasket replaced.
Is the head somehow "overly sealed' (awful terminology) wrong such that there is so much pressure building up under the valve cover that the vapor flow is just taking the path of least resistance and heading out the unmetered AIR INTAKE orifice in he valve cover?

Thanks for your help. I drive back Sat nite - Sun so any input would be appreciated before then.

Oh JOY.

I will choose worn, as I cannot mentally handle one being broken.

There is absolutely NO smoke up to 4k rpm.

Is it possible that the oil control rings are all seized in place, allowing oil into the cylinders and the small additional compression they would otherwise create is enough to explain oil consumption and backwards PCV flow. There is ZERO oil or residue in the air intake, so the pressure doesn't seem strong enough to be venting oil. Not even in vapor form. It just isn't happening.

I do not doubt your diagnosis, I just don't want to mentally accept it.

If this is somehow the wrong PVC, I assume that could have an effect (as in never venting).

I'll give you folks an update on Sun when I get back to Pittsburgh.

Thank you, Andy.

And yes I will perform a leak down test in Pittsburgh.

Get a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Drain a quart of oil out of the crankcase. Put in the MMO. Drive it for about 100 miles. Do an oil and filter change. See if that helps. The MMO is some pretty damned good stuff. I have a friend in CA that's an ASE certified master mechanic and he swears by it.

2 hours into trip. Somewhere in Tennessee. Mental visions of Rube cause me to almost swerve off the road.

Oil lost after 150 mi @ 70 ish mph = 0.25 qt.
Post PCV valve and both hoses replaced.

I'm thinking it could be relieving enough pressure even operating backwards to relieve enough pressure but not push oil. That would also imply that the head gasket oil leak is reduced.

Maybe there was a chunk of gunk or something blocking the orifice from the PCV output to the intake that I could not access during my cleaning but has now dislodged. I will keep driving as is. Not stupid enough to touch it now. we'll check vacuum situation and direction of PCV flow when I get home.

And leak down.

I am so ****ing depressed right now. If I get home in the next 12 hours of my 7 remaining driving hours I'll consider it a victory. I can concentrate just enough to drive right now. I could not last night or I would have left last night. One thing I do not need right now is a car payment. As always I'm eternally grateful for your support, Technical and otherwise. Peace out

I hope you have a safe trip back, man. Give your wife a big hug and kiss when you get home and then go to bed. You've earned some sleep, man.

Ok, I have no short term memory..

The oil was a tad high on the stick at the start..

First 140 mi: 0.25 qt
Last 420 mi including multiple sanity and my driving is too ragged stops (requiring repeated on ramp acceleration) : O.5 qt.

I used several quarts on the way down there, so things have changed for the better.

I short shifted as much as possible to keep the RPM down.

Need to get my car emptied out. Then off to a family picnic where I put on my fake happy mask. Or not. Just too tired.

Drive time: 10 hours
My time: .14.5 hours

Most enjoyable stop:

One glasses lens ejection (not driving), followed by loss of one nosepad into the abyss between the front seat and the console. If you've ever owned a Saturn S Coupe you I know exactly what I mean.

I found three bottle caps, five pens, four gas receipts, $0.17 in change and, after 20 minutes of searching blindly with my hand because you cannot put light and your hand in there at the same time, my nose pad.

Route 19 in West Virginia is an effing Twilight Zone.

Update -- sorta

Well, I finally got some time to do some preliminary testing on the black car. I still need to do a leak down test but here's what I've done (thought the buddy w the lift had one but he doesn't so I need to buy one before I go up there to use the lift.

1) Vacuum: Steadyish, 20 ish (tiny needle quiver) at idle.
Strong throttle blip --> drops to zero, comes right back.

2) PCV system operation:
I'm perplexed, but here's what I found today.
With the new PCV valve and hoses, the air intake now pulls air IN --not terribly strong, but it will hold a post-it to the end of the hose. NOT PUFFIING OUT as it was in Atlanta.

I also know that the PCV system is functional because when I pulled the PCV hose off the intake to measure the vacuum, oil began to mini-hemorrhage at the corner of the valve cover (whose gasket I just had replaced.
As soon as I hooked it back up, the leak stopped. So there is a decent vac in that area.
This is consistent with the fact that I never saw any trace of oil in the air cleaner or ducting. It was not pushing hard enough to push oil OR I was too clueless to put my finger over the hose and feel a slight vac. The puffs I described in Atlanta--might they have been the compression leak, but between them, it was actually pulling air? Sounds kooky as I re read it, but I can't figure out any other reason it would be flowing properly today vs then.

3) Compression Test (Dry & Wet)
As Andy had suspected compression ring issues, I figured I would do a compression test prior to the leakdown so I would have a general idea of what to expect.

The results:
Cyl Dry Wet
1 210 240
2 210 230
3 190 230
4 200 220

I take away from this that the compression rings are significantly worn The service limit is 180 though I have driven on less.
Since the PCV situation doesn't seem to indicate blow by issues so strong that the system can't keep up with it, I'm still going to do the leak down test, with the expectation I will see more or less equal leakage past the rings in all cylinders.

4) Plugs
The plugs I pulled were that nice tan color and there was no evidence whatsoever of being oil soaked.
The car had been sitting since yesterday, so when I pulled the plugs cold (to check for oil fouling, if oil was getting past the valve guide seals, I would see it on the pistons and get a puff of smoke at startup.
I saw neither.


The remaining question:

5) Where is the oil going?
Yet to personally assess the oil leak at the head gasket area, but seeing as how it does not spew oil when I downshift and then get the RPMs up to go up my driveway into the garage, I doubt it is a hemorrhage, and the fact that the PCV system seems to be operating "properly" means the internal pressure on that gasket should be reduced and seeping less oil.
The case may be different at highway speeds for extended amounts of time at higher RPMs.

Which leaves us with the classic stuck oil control ring scenario.

I am convinced that whatever I did to this engine on my 90+ mph 20 min drive to hospice (in vain) mostly happened during that run.
Of course, the compression rings wear with time.
But it burned not 1 drop of oil until after that drive, and if I drive around town keeping the RPMs down, it burns about nothing (though I don't drive it much).

But if the compression rings are now significantly worn AND I froze all the oil control rings on that drive, that would be AN explanation for what is transpiring.

I will
1) assess the oil leak at head gasket
2) perform leak down test
3) do a Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) piston soak and hope for the best. Many S car owners have had success getting some of their oil control rings unfrozen.
Will it make a difference in oil consumption? I hope so. Because if not, I am already at about 3 qts /3000 mi

The car drives as if you'd never know anything was going on. Smooth as a baby's butt.

1) No, this is the car that is timed correctly.
2) About being wet underneath--It is wet behind the engine in multiple places on the frame, but it is not wet all the way back that far as I recollect. The head gasket oil leak is supposedly on the side of the engine facing the front of the car. I sense there are multiple leaks by the multiple oil spot pattern that the car leaves whenever I park it. Hence why I need to get the car on a left and carefully inspect.

Aside #1:: There must be some ooze from the valve cover gasket when car is off as there is no vacuum with the car off,(see previous post) so I assume some oil draining down oozes from the spot I described yesterday. I also noticed that there seems to be an increasing separation between the valve cover and the head approaching the spot where it now mini-hemorrhages when off. I have a zillion pictures with the car running. Don't know if I have any while off.

Aside # 2: PCV nonsense may have contributed but to me, it looks like the cam cover gasket is not fully seated at the leftmost front bolt (facing the car) OR either the cover or head is warped (low probability - would leak from more locations in that area). The whole front edge was weeping oil for weeks after the valve cover gasket replacement. I'll chalk part of that up to the clogged PCV valve and increased pressure. That has completely stopped, including when off.

I checked the torque on all the cam cover bolts and although they read high on my brand new torque wrench (supposedly -- I have not sought out another bolt on the car to check), they are equal, so the takeaway seems to be someone ****ed that up and the gasket is getting pinched and is not in its groove in that location. I do not believe increased crankcase pressure could cause a separation between the cover and the head.,

3) I run 10W30 now, but only switched from 5W30 about 20K ago, so the accelerated wear damage had already taken its toll. I had always ran 5W30 in both the original engines (before I knew better) and no oil burning issues before 130K on each. It was cold in Jersey long enough during the year (long winters) that I played it safe and ran 5W30 in the winter--but never changed to 10W30. Too late now.
I have put less than 25K on the car(rebuilt engine) in the last 5 years but it is driven multiple times a week.

I think it is a combo of leaking and burning, caused by negligent non-replacement of a $5 part and not using a heavy enough oil.
That's right -- Unc -- if you're out there -- I didn't listen to your advice, and now I'm likely paying the price.

I haven't even had access to a helper to just stand on the gas so that I could watch if it is spraying oil underneath. I suppose a brick + the rev limiter at 0 mph would accomplish the same (4k rpm). Funny how typing stuff in the forum gives me ideas on the fly.

I'm going to have to redo the valve cover gasket because I am tired of even more oil on the ground, and I can't stand when people do **** incorrectly to my car, even though I am the biggest offender at that. Big ol' hypocrite I am.
Plus it's a learning experience. I've never done one. I know way too much "theory" (I think I do, which is dangerous) and have way too little hands-on experience because the few things that go wrong on a Saturn S car are easily remedied, and I've driven Saturn s cars since '92 uninterrupted.

Bones -- get ready for an LS1 swap.....you have 30K warning

I'll be back with an update when I have something to update.

Finally got the car up on the lift today.

The right side front frame member below and behind (in line with) the corner of the cam cover gasket that's leaking is soaked with oil from getting blown back while driving.

The underside of the transmission case and where it meets the engine are also soaked with oil.

Last but not least, there is oil pooling on the flat landing on the lower left hand side of the block (front of car).

There is a film of oil below the entire left edge where the cam cover meets the head, and the gasket was indeed overtightened and is now distorted in the area that leaks.

Used Brakecleen to rinse down all oily residue, top and bottom and wiped dry.

Ran car at idle at operating temp for several minutes. No sign of leaks or oozing on the bottom. Held at about 3k rpm for several minutes. No sign of leaks underneath.

Dropped lift back down and repeated same tests.

Conclusion:

Only active leak found at idle or at rough equivalent of highway RPMs (not truly representative since there is no physical load on the engine, so throttle not as open as it would be in real life) is a the leak between the cam cover and the head in the left front quarter.

As I view it, that can cover leak MAY be leaking around the front of the engine, causing the oil residue on the frame behind behind it, AND oil from that same leak is migrating dowh the left side of the block, pooling on the ledge, then getting blown underneath to the tranny case and the bottom back of the block.

Ultimate confirmation of the above comes when I put it on ramps tomorrow.

There does not seem to be any sign of an oil leak from the head gasket. In his partial defense, you cannot see the head block mating area clearly from the bottom. I think he mistook oil running down off that ledge as having come from the head gasket area.

And I thought I finally found a shop to send my baby to. The owner is incredibly knowledgeable, but he's got at least one new chump working for him, and that's a shame as the original three mechanics there 5 years back were great.

Guess I'll be learning some more new stuff soon.

I used a Fel-Pro with the replacement grommets.
However, I guess if someone distorts it in the process of overtightening it (Validated my new inch lb wrench to within 2 of my brother n law's old properly taken care of craftsman torque wrench. about 116 on 89 in lb spec bolts all around) trying to get it to not weep and now all out leak, it doesn't matter what brand was in there. I'm thinking the mating surfaces were not properly cleaned, just like every other part of the job was half assed by the mechanic (leaving me a block covered in dirty oil, etc.)

FEL-PRO VS50454R do I assume the felpro was good and the installation bad and order another set? They have had QC issues from time on the DOHC gaskets. Watched some dude on a How To Youtube go to install it --right shape but 3 in too long......
ACDELCO 21007365 does NOT come with replacement grommets -- they are no longer available thru parts sites --still need to check ebay
APEX AVC382S is this a decent brand? Not familiar with it
ENGINETECH VCS19A again, decent brand?

Ordered the AC Delco with MAHLE grommet set (Actually made by victor reinz who supposedly also supplies the gasket to felpro (?) ) since AC Delco does not come with grommets. I figure the new ones in there are mashed from overtightening so I got more.
People on Ebay want an obscene amnt of $ for the AC Delco Grommets. Bite me.

Parts come by end of the week.

Indeed, the Chilton manual indicates using some rtv in specific locations. There is actually a separation between the cover and head near the leak spot. Can see gasket and get a fingernail in between. Leak is at sharp corner to the left of that area. Gasket must have been forced from its groove by being over torqued or it was not sized correctly.

Turn off engine, leaks slowly. Disonnect pcv valve. from intake, and here comes the oil.....

Just realize I should order myself a second set of gaskets and grommets because I have never done this before and if I screw it up I will have to wait another 4 days for parts. Always handy to have spares.

OK I'm getting ready to replace the cam cover gasket myself this time. It is the only external oil leak I can find.

I have the preformed AC Delco gasket. It says I need to hit the T joints where the cam cover meets the timing cover with some RTV. Makes sense. also on the cover before putting in the gasket (2 mm bead)

What type/material/color/flavor. I got the RTV part, but there are many.

All suggestions appreciated.
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PS: I have a bad tremor so I'll be sure to capture a pic of my perfectly straight 2mm bead.

Oh, I semiconfirmed the bolts were overtorqued to about 112 in lbs instead ot 83 per torque spec. measured within 3 in lb to a 20 yr old decent craftsman click type that has been cared for

I don't think the mechanic ever looked at Alldata, just did it by feel, then kept tightening b c it kept leaking, in part b c my PCV was stuck partly open/closed and the pressure was pushing oil past the gasket.
I bet I won't find any RTV at the T joints either. That's where the hemmorhage is when you stop the engine or remove the vacuum from the PCV while running.

ok then. I thought they were rated for different temperatures and such and had different elasticity at different temps.

The owner of the shop had me get the black stuff for when he replaced the oil pan. Not a drop leaks. He said that one resists cracking over time with the temp cycling.

You should be okay with the black RTV, derf. I have both the black and gray and most likely would have used the black too. But, I'm old school and would have run a bead around the entire cover, waited a few minutes for it to get tacky and then put the gasket on it. I never put any type of sealer on a head.Is that what you're supposed to do on the Saturn?

The bead does go on the cover, than the gasket. The ONLY place you put rtv to the actual head is at the t joints. Nowhere else. On the same page, old schooler

OK,

I finally got over the mental block associating with re replacing the cam cover gasket.

I was speechless when I removed the cover bolts.
What HE did:

1) the gasket, which press fits into a groove in the cover, fell out of the groove and stayed with the head.
2) the gasket had either been stretched on install or was too big from the start. Mechanic's answer: CUT IT but leave a gap between the cut ends. Tell no one.
3) OLD RTV (2 layers) not cleaned off at T Joints, the only place you apply it. Answer: Add a third rtv layer blob, in the wrong direction so it seals nothing at all but holds the end of the gasket way up off the head.
4) the dude added rtv to the two rounded turns at the far side of the head. Reason? Beats me. Nothing meeting nothing. Maybe he's into symmetry. Note that there was no RTV from previous jobs as there were at the other end.
5) result of 3 + 4 made it physically impossible to seal the cover to the head, as both ends were being jacked up by RTV on the head side. He probably tightened up to spec, then started it. THAT's when the oil got all over my block.
6) overtorqued the bolts as far as he could without shearing them off in order to get as much of a seal as he could and called it done..

---------------------

What I did
0) photographed the disaster to the nth degree
a) meticulously cleaned the edge of the head, removing all traces of RTV (brake cleaner)
a2) cleaned the oil out of the seating landings at the top of the spark plug tubes
b) meticulously cleaned cam cover gasket, especially the mating surface (brake cleaner)
b2) installed cover gasket
b3) installed plug well gasket strip on head
c) let everything dry
d) replaced the grommets
e) put a thin smear of black rtv across the t joints front to back, let it skin up for 10 min
f) put the cover back on straight from above so everything landed and seated properly the first time
g) followed the Chilton book for tightening order of bolts. made 4 gradual passes to final toque of 89 in lbs.4
h) let sit 24 hours.

Started up, no leaks
Drove around town, no leaks
Drove on highway, no leaks
Parked in garage. no leaks

Done.

Thanks for the support, folks. I thought there was more magic to this job than there was.
There just ain't.

[/endUnneccesaryNightmare]

Glad to hear you had a successful repair, derf. Valve cover gaskets have never been an intimidating job for me except on a FWD V-6 Mopar van!! That rear one is a bear. LOL

People on this and other satty sites always seemed to describe the gasket fix as involving black magic or some special ritual.

As it turns out, the s cars from 94 and earlier do NOT have a slot in the cover for a pre Fab gasket. You make one with rtv. I had somehow gotten it into my head that I needed to lay a perimeter bead of rtv, which, because I have bad hand tremors, I kept avoiding the job.

I am yet to determine a diplomatic way to tell the owner of the shop that whomever worked on my car possesses neither intelligence, motivation, nor logical problem solving skills, and if faced with something unfamiliar to him, is too lazy to look it up in alldata or either of the 2 Chilton manuals I left on the front passenger seat w pages marked for torque specs.

I know the owner cannot afford to be down a mechanic, but this subpar level of work is something he needs to know about. Doubt it is just my ride being affected. A lot of retired folks use his shop because he's honest and reasonably priced. They won't know the guy is taking shortcuts that don't work, then covering them up.

Rant over. Here's a pic of the engine bay after a good degreasing.....https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...13f81f0b0c.jpg

Looks awesome! As for telling the owner of the shop about his sub-par employee, you just need to be straight up honest with him. I'd rather own a busy shop with a wait time than one that "fixes" everything in a days time. Better to be short handed and reputable than too many employees and not enough business to keep them busy. Word of mouth will either increase your business or put you out. I can't imagine being put out of business because of one lazy, slothful employee. Tell the guy, the first chance you get. Let him know it's no disrespect to him or his business, just the one employee. Hopefully, you documented all of that and can show him. what was done wrong. That will help him tremendously.