Just checking in...
 

I've been absent for a while(tablet issues, internet connectivity problems, busy work schedule, etc...), and it seems much has changed, and yet at the same time, nothing has... So, how's everybody been? Winter treating you all well?(except RJ and sw2cam, you're still probably at 75 degrees and I envy you)

New additions/subtractions to your fleets?(I just read RJ sold his ION)... Nothing has changed in mine, other than repairs made, winter casualties, and mileage accumulation...

Glad to have you back.
How's the Taurus treatin' ya?

Same ole same ole around here. Hey, you want to buy my house? I put it up for sale two weeks ago!

Taurus is treating me fine, though accumulating some winter damage and needing some attention, already had to buy wheels and tires, the front two were severely bent... Were I given the choice, I would have our old L series back I think though, lol...

And I would love to buy a house, and get out of my in-laws yard, but I can't afford to buy one, let alone relocate to a different state altogether...

All's well here in middle TN...

DH has had a few pretty days (and I mean REALLY pretty days) to get some needed maintenance stuff done on our assorted vehicles, but the Saturn only will need an oil change soon. Everything else was on the to-do list.

The little SL1 is running good for me, she's no speed demon but great for A to B and gas mileage. That's why we bought her!

Yeah, I had a pretty day, and changed my oil... In the respect of a DD, my Taurus kinda sucks... It's terminally slow, and sucks gas to add insult to injury... I've averaged about 20mpg overall...:(

Man, that thing ought to be getting better mileage than that. When's the last time you did a complete tune up on it, or have you?
Here's a link for the EPA estimates.Fuel Economy of 1995 Ford Taurus

RJ, I don't have near enough cheese to go with that whine.

Well, I live in a mountainous region, and almost none of my driving is interstate driving, and I haven't done a tune-up yet. I was expecting about what I'm getting out of a 3liter, automatic car... I did check highway mileage once, for about 75 miles worth, at between 70 and 85-90mph, and got 25.5mpg... My daily commute isn't the most economical, as I cross five hills to work and back, and lots of accelerating and then braking for a turn...

Yep, that'll do it.

... And because I can't leave well enough alone, and I was bored one evening before going to work, I stumbled upon this...

Cars for Sale: 2002 Saturn S-Series SL2 Sedan in Ravenna, OH 44266: Sedan Details - 388957350 - AutoTrader.com

I called them and a straight-up trade is likely, but I would have to lose both of my Fords... You guys think it'll be worth it?

Only you can decide if it's worth it or not, man. One less vehicle to maintain and insure is an attractive thought, though, isn't it? If you really don't need the extra one, then go ahead and pull the trigger.

I have to go with Rube on this one, it's your call brother.

Surprised they are not asking a bit more.
--The car appears cosmetically very well maintained.
--Door gaps and bumper alignment consistent, paint is original saturn color so
likely never wrecked. If wrecked, put back together nicely.
---Interior looks good for it's age.

---used a vin decoder --- did not say it had side airbags -- just saying -- could be
wrong
---also ABS is not mentioned in either the ad or the vin decoder results. I thought
this was standard on the later S series cars. Someone pls chime in. I bring this
up b/c you prob want abs in WV, no?

Of course of primary concern is the state of the engine and mechanicals. You must use your ears and eyes since they always steam clean them. That and a compression test is vital. It might be pretty on the outside but a mess under the hood.

If I'm trading two vehicles to get one, I want to be damn ****ing sure I'm buying something that is in good enough condition under the hood that will last me awhile, 'cause I'll have no spare.

Just trying to help lay it all out on the table for ya.

Go with what you hear see and measure, not with the warm fuzzy you get from buying a shiny new car (new to you)

Yeah, ABS and T/C were options on the S-cars, and I couldn't care less about not having it. My ranger is the first vehicle I've owned with it, and yes there is the occasional moment when I get into a spot without it, but I don't need it to drive...

Side airbags aren't a concern, the bags in the Taurus aren't functional, and my ranger has only a drivers airbag...


What sort of compression would a healthy engine make? My Suzuki, with something off(like maybe cam timing) made 240+ psi, my old ranger with a bad carb and 172,xxx miles made 125-142 depending on throttle position(125 open and 142 shut)...

And I was also worried about rust, given that it's an Ohio car, but I don't know what to do, other than to take a screwdriver and inspection mirror with me...

And it had better have GOOD tires on it, as the Taurus just got new tires and wheels, like 450 miles ago...

mirror is absolutely fine. If it's a dealership, have them put it up on a lift for you so you my inspect the underneath/underbody rust, exhaust system, and signs of any leaks. Do this AFTER you take it for a test drive so that any real world leak that occurs when hot will hopefully show, often as liquid blown back onto the nearest frame structure or against the firewall.

Tires are a fine negotiating point if necessary. Stock equivs are about 100/ea from tirerack.

I think the compression service limit per Saturn (RIP) is/was 170ish, though I drove my 95 below that without misfires before rework.

Again do AFTER the test drive while the car is at operating temp.

And check those codes after the test drive -- I believe that you can do a loan a tool at autozone for the cheapie odbii reader you'd need. It won't show you if they just cleared the codes, but you'll see pending ones if they're there.

Also I've lived in three salt states (Wisc, NJ, PA), and the only underside rust on my 95 coupe is the exhaust system (meaning yes it's all evenly rusted.)

It appears we are operating on the same wavelength as far as the car goes... I plan to use my UltraGauge to read codes during the test drive, as well as other performance data... If the engine pings and the computer pulls timing to compensate, I'll see it... They don't have a lift(claim to use a mechanics lift at other location when in doubt on a trade), so I might have to take a set of ramps with me, either way, I want under this thing, before it stays under me...

I'll ask him if they would mind me doing a compression check when I look at it, as well as insist on seeing the underside...

On a related note, I need a huge favor...

The last detail of this deal is getting the thing home, without getting impounded, seized, etc... The guy claims that he can just slap a 30 day tag on it, and then I register it when I get back home to WV... Everyone else I talk to says that I have to pay OH tax, register it there, then pay WV tax and register it here(all within the timeframe of a temporary tag), which is more cash than I can swing at the moment... I have heard of getting a one-way permit, but it have no idea how they work...

Any ideas?

I've only bought cars out of neighboring states except once in FL. The dealership in FL charged me the sales tax, put a 30 day tag on it and I drove it home with zero problems from any law. Of course, I never got pulled over either. Went to the county clerks office, handed them the paperwork and all I had to pay for was the tag. Tax has been collected on a vechicle in one state, they can't collect it in another. As far as for buying cars in KY, AL or GA, I always just took a spare plate with me off one of my other cars and put it on. Drove the legal speed limits on the way home and never got stopped. I figured if I did, since I had proof that I'd just bought the car, they'd probably let me go with a warning.

1. That's an interesting thought, I'll have to ask at the soonest convenience...

2. Funny you mentioned that, that's exactly how I would handle the situation, were the car a little closer to me(it's 250 miles distant) Hell, that's how I got both my Ranger and Taurus home, use a tag from a vehicle I owned, drive carefully(but normally, as in speeding, 5 or so over, in areas to blend into traffic), and carry information pertinent to the tag I removed, as if to insinuate the imminent transfer of the tag(and insurance) in question...

I might be over-thinking this, but I don't wanna get stopped 120 miles from home, and get my new(and only) car impounded, and then have no ride anywhere because I no longer have a back-up... My co-worker depends on me for a ride, and I wouldn't want to screw us both over, for missing a small detail...

Unless you're just a total prick to the LEO if you were to get stopped, I seriously doubt that they'd arrest you and impound your car. Most of those guys are damn good people, just doing their jobs.

Buy from dealer in OH, pay OK sales tax, 30 day temp reg, paperwork to WV DMV, register in WV. There is no "sale transaction" once you get to WV so there is no duplication in WV. There are of course reg fees, title fees, fees for fees, etc.

The swap a plate is an option but could get ugly. Emphasis on "could".

Plus I don't think a reputable car dealer would let you escape sales tax ---because it's the law. Not saying everyone follows the law, but....

Plus if you follow the law, you'll pay sales tax but get the 30 day tag which comes with a 30 temp registration.

Plus I believe the law states that they can't let you drive it off the lot without proof of insurance; I wouldn't think your insurance company would cover it unless you went the legal route. That may vary among states, not sure. But you would not be covered should the unthinkable happen to you.

Plus, if the title makes them state the selling price, WV DMV may ask for proof that you paid OH sales tax.

Plus, yes, my mind usually can find almost every permutation of worst case scenarios much faster than I can type them.

Maybe I should sell extended warranties on cars.....

Seriously, not doing this to scare you, just laying it out there. Legal costs a bit more but sends you home in a legally registered, already insured, easy to register car when you get home.

Oh, don't forget to do a title search before you leave home if you haven't done one already. If the title has problems you'll have a **** time getting it retitled (& registered) to you in WV


Ooops there I go again.

And no need to be polite asking about the compression test. I don't give a **** if they mind. Politely TELL them you ARE doing a compression test. And ask to see it on their lift at the other location if it is nearby. Can't hurt, but bring your ramps.

1. I emailed someone at the WV DMV, and they said that an OH dealer would issue me a "non resident" title, and give me a temp tag, charge no OH sales tax, then when I get home, I can register the car in WV, paying sales tax at the time.

2. I planned on buying insurance before I made the trip, or at least contacting my people to let them know what's up, that way they can just fax an ins card to the dealer upon purchase. While I have driven vehicles home uncovered, I don't want to attempt a 250 mile return trip without coverage, especially in wintertime.

3. You aren't scaring me, I was asking for more info about the legal route(s), not necessarily for a way around it(them), and I greatly appreciate the info...

4. I've never heard of a title search, how is that accomplished?

5. I will ask again to see the underside of the car before I depart, and will do a compression check when I get there(or they will with me watching). I would really rather know all this beforehand, so that I don't drive 500 miles round trip for nothing(two vehicles, 20 mpg each, $2.25 a gal average)...

1) I was close
2) good good good in the area
3) You're quite welcome
4) Get them to pull the CARFAX report (at their expense) and email it to you ASAP.
Not sure if the title history is in there; someone else can surely comment yay/nay.

Just for yucks I went to
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck

and entered your VIN
It has not been reported stolen or totaled

You can go to National Motor Vehicle Title Information System: Research Vehicle History

and order your own report for a fee. Interestingly they state carfax is not approved by them b/c they only provide results to dealers. (?) Not sure if carfax report is enough but start with that asap and make them send it to you and see if it makes you comfortable enough.

5) An easy way to see the underside of the car is to have them put it on a lift and snap some phone pix and email to you. ASAP. Just plead the "I wanna know the condition of the whole car before I drive 500 mi."

Just point out gently that you wouldn't be asking all these things if you weren't extremely interested. Any used car dealer already should have a carfax pulled for every car on their lot.....

Do the compression test yourself. Those are the only numbers I'd trust.

I spoke with the dealer this morning, and he agreed to get the car on a lift and snap some pics. I will call him this afternoon and give him a cell number to send them to, he couldn't take it down when I first called...

Be picky. Be very picky.

I really do rest easier knowing I have a back-up to my main ride. Yes, it's more $ to insure and maintain, but we've been in the situation where more than 1 vehicle has been down for repairs and had to borrow a car to go to the parts store. I think at that time we had 3 and they all tore up at once. Yay.

However it plays out for you, I hope you get a heckuva good deal and really like what you choose to do!

In TN, when we moved here and transferred titles/tags to here, we didn't have any tax trouble. The only out of state vehicle we bought was from GA and when I took in the title I just had to pay TN sales tax. Was not an issue. However, TN is probably easier to deal with than many states. It's a whole lot easier in the long run to just do it legally than have potential issues.

I am gonna be picky...

No pics of underside- No sale

Fluids all over bottom of engine- No sale

SES light trips during test drive- No sale

Shaking/squealing/misc- No sale


Here's how I see it- I am trading two perfectly good, mechanically sound, rust free Fords for one Saturn of unknown origin, and I know, for a fact, that I am getting burned when you look at book values alone. My vehicles combine for about $3500, and he is asking the classic $1999. Now, it appears nice but, as Derf reminded me, anything could be wrong, and I KNOW I'm gonna have to start carrying oil around with me, the car will use some, as they all do. I am also going to be using this for DD duty as well as it being my baby, so it must be reliable, and it will have to need nothing immediately, other than fuel, or I can't afford it...

Needless to say, I'm on guard...

As far as the oil useage goes, just bump the weight up to 10W-30. That'll help some.

I finally did that.


check out http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

Where's Unc when you want to talk oil?

Bonestock,

On your guard is exactly as you need to be.
Key hint: Bring along a code reader that can read the status of the I/M Monitors. What are I/M Monitors, you ask:

What are I/M Monitors?

I/M (Inspection & Maintenance) Monitors test the operation of emission-related systems or components and detect out-of-range values. The vehicle may have to be operated under certain conditions to complete an I/M Monitor test. Currently, there are eleven I/M Monitors defined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Not all monitors are supported by all vehicles.

These I/M Monitors are:
I/M Monitor Definition
Misfire Misfire
Fuel Sys Fuel System
Comprehens Comprehensive Components
Catalyst Catalyst
Heated Cat Heated Catalyst
Evap Sys Evaporative System
Sec Air Secondary AIR
A/C Refrig Air Conditioning Refrigerant
O2 Sensor Oxygen Sensor
HO2 Sensor Heated Oxygen Sensor
EGR Sys Exhaust Gas Recirculation System

A monitor status of ''''Ready'''' means that the required driving conditions for that monitor have been met and it passed.
(the PCM runs checks on these systems --some can trigger almost immediately, some of the exhaust ones can take 25 to 50 miles before the PCM collects the required amount of data to decide if some things pass or fail.)
A monitor status of ''''Not Ready'''' means that the required driving conditions for that monitor have not been completed or it did not pass.

When someone clears the codes on an ODBII car, it erases any stored (hard or pending )codes and it ALSO resets ALL the I/Ms to Not Ready

A monitor status of ''''N/A'''' means that the vehicle does not support that monitor.

The stuff I typed in is the not bolded (unbolded?) text

So the VERY FIRST THING to do is turn the key to run, don't even start it up, read it for codes, and check those I/M monitor statuses (stati). If all the non-N/A ones read "Not Ready", then someone cleared the codes after it was last parked or close to that time.

If that is the case, you can either walk away OR drive it a minimum of 50 mi on the test drive to see what code(s) pop up. Cat Con efficiency I believe is the one that takes the longest if someone is trying to hide it. This COULD be a worn out rear O2 sensor which runs about $100 or it could be the car itself. Don't know till you have someone test the cat or you replace the rear O2 sensor and the code goes away forever.

If you get this kind of code, you can severely leverage them on price--but it's a gamble. Rube and Unc can tell you more about clogged cat behavior than I, who has never experienced said phenomenon.

Be weary of EGR codes -- cleaning or replacement and port cleaning often fixes issue, sometimes doesn't, then is a bitch to deal with.

100-200 (oem) replacement cost.
_____________________
Hell, I know I'm a pessimist, but we both know he's not "holding" the car for weeks just for YOU. If it's that great a deal on that great a car, why is it still on his lot? AND if you're getting hozed on the swap value of the deal......+500 mi

Is it REALLY worth it?

Check out the pics and we can discuss I suppose........hell...post em here

.

I wonder if I could rent a scan tool that would check the I/M monitors... I don't think my UG reads their status... If I drove up there and anything was amiss, there would be no price leverage, but NO DEAL HOWIE(slams box down over button)!

Reason being, the guy that I bought my Taurus off of has some new stock, some of which seems interesting, one is a 2003 Saturn(some model or other), with a 5 speed... Currently needs a coolant leak fixed, but he sells them 100% operable, meaning he's gonna fix it... Quoted me like $1200 for it... Now, if it's really an 03, it's either an ION or an L series, but I've seen him get the year wrong before(quoted my Taurus as a 98), so he may in fact have an S-car...

Obviously, this seems the better deal, cause I could probably just trade one of my vehicles for it, and sell the other outright when no issues pop up... But I also have to make concessions for my mother, who needs a car worse than I, and she would love an 03 ION, but maybe it'll be an LW200, and she won't want it...

Now, the only issue I have with an S series is the tranny, specifically it's predicted reaction to me driving it in snow... Generally, when there's lots of thick snow, I have to spin the balls off whatever I'm driving to get out... As in, floor it and row upward through the gears like I'm drag racing, often associated with wheelspin in excess of 70 mph... Now I know that's not an orthodox way of doing it(and not the safest or easiest on your car) but it has worked well for me in the past, but we all know that the first time I do that to an MPx trans, it's gonna eject its diff pin and then I'll be hosed... So I wouldn't complain at all about getting an ION or L series...except the timing chain oiler/tensioner... It's like a 30 dollar part, and supposed to be easy as pie to change, but I can find NO INFO on doing just the tensioner... Damn, where's RJ when we need him?

Good to see your guard is fully up -- even against me!! Sweet.

Autozone may do scanners as part of their lend a tool program but i'm not sure what "level" of scanner it would be. Only one way to find out. And of course check the other auto stores to see their lend a tool programs ...might just get lucky. Might be a fee if you don't return the same day.

A lot of the car parts stores are now reading codes but will not clear them for you. I think it's a per-state thing, and I think it is because they must think that some people are getting codes cleared then driving so just enough of the I/Ms are "ready" so they pass inspection (some states don't require that all I/M's be ready, just a minimum and of that minimum certain ones must be in there as "ready".) Either that or it is to cut down on private owner to private owner deception/fraud where some dude wants his SES turned off just long enough to survive a test drive.....hmmmm....sound familiar?


As far as S cars in the snow, Traction control will help to a point and works well on snow covered roads that were previously plowed, but not in a fresh 8 inches of snow. The car is just too low to the ground and only weighs about 2300 lbs. In combination with ABS (for when you get overconfident with the traction control) it's not too bad.

I can hear the tire whine from here, and the diff pin punching a hole in the tranny case. I'm surprised you haven't trashed any other 5 speeds doing that. In theory that should just dig you down into a rut real quickly unless you are inching forward JUST ENOUGH to keep from creating a deep enough rut to trap yourself.

Plus you're following my golden rule of snow driving -- he who maintains momentum continues moving; he who stops at stop signs when no one is around isn't going anywhere ---except backwards if they're on a hill.

To be honest, most of such escapades happened in my old ranger, the Mazda M5OD is a really tough transmission, and the Ford 7.5" axle is pretty stout with an 80hp/106tq four banger turning it... I didn't do it enough in the Suzuki to hurt anything that I know of...I usually just try and maintain momentum if at all possible, so as to stay moving, but when I stop in deep snow, or take off from the house in deep snow, or other situations, spinning like that solved the problem...

Well, the deal fell through on the SL2, they sold it, I think... I am going to try and shop around locally...

Sorry to hear that, man. Maybe you'll find something a lot closer to home.

Sorry to hear it dude. Like Rube said, something more local should turn up.

Plus I was never comfortable with that 2 for 1 swap.....

Ehh, it's okay... I learned a long time ago, good things to those who wait... If I can sell my cars in a short while, I found something else at a semi-local dealer, a 2002 SVT Focus. While it's not a Saturn, it should be quicker, albeit with a fuel economy penalty...

Is that the five speed or six speed Focus? If it's the six speed, the average is around 26mpg combined. Five speed is about 27. Not much difference, but a damn site better than the Taurus or Exploder!

Hah! I've got Charlie calling them Exploders now LOL!!

I learned a long time ago when something is supposed to happen, you don't have to work excessively hard to make it work. The 2 for 1 had me a little ? on value, especially since one would have been your Ranger - they hold good value in my book. Anyways, you're not between a rock and a hard place, so keep looking for what you really want to get. I'm living proof that sooner or later, when it's right, it will happen.

you mean like finding this forum? ;)

They say that patience is a virtue, good things to those who wait... I'll live with the ones I have now(actually have to fix the Taurus now, brakes just went out)...

Honestly, I almost think of just modding my truck to be a better four season vehicle, and not worrying about a car, but driving my truck to work last night, I missed driving a roomy, comfy car... I just don't want to relegate myself to only having a Taurus, I would miss driving something with sporting intent... Maybe I could swap a 5 speed in it?