Cleaning up paint
 

The previous owner of my SC2 used some kind of cement to attach a broken mirror back onto the car. I'm in the process of repairing it correctly and I was wondering if someone had any ideas about cleaning up the area.


http://s643.photobucket.com/user/dav...ni2qa.jpg.html


I'd like to save the paint if I can, Cranberry is a very rare color. I can try scraping it off, but if there was a solvent I could use, I would be grateful!

pic link broken

I wonder if some dry ice rubbed on it might cause dissimilar contraction and the cement might release. I've never tried it but it might be a first attempt before trying a solvent on your paint.

Just a caution, dry ice can cause serious skin damage. If you try this do not let it come in contact with bare skin.

Yes i should have said that! thanks

Dry ice is -109f or colder so its not to be handled without good protection.

Also its co2 so don't use or let it sublimate in an enclosed space. I would put it in my home only an outside feezer.

hell I should have said that..I'm a Chemist by training....

Also, you have think about how the materials will be losing heat in this situation.

If the cement gets very cold very fast but does not release from the door, then the paint will "freeze " next -- and if that whole combo comes off, you've missed your objective and hosed the paint.

I wish your pic link wasn't broken.

If it is some type of thin clear glue, it may be cyano-acrylate based (like KrazyGlue) in which case in can be dissolved CAREFULLy with acetone (found in Nail polish remover or found CONCENTRATED at HD, Lowes, etc. Try some nail polish rem first w a q tip on an out of sight spot to see it it works.

I don't doubt that concentrated acetone will wreck the clear coat and paint--it's used as a solvent for many things, so don't go there.

I think I have a solution to the pictures problem. I'll take some up-close pictures and post them shortly.

Ok, photos can be found here.
http://www.cardomain.com/ridepost/63...turn-s-series/


It's not the most elegant photo solution, but it works.

Ok, I've learned how to post photos here.


I'm not concerned with the mirror bracket as I'm going to be replacing that this weekend. I'm more concerned with the door panel.

wow sorry you have that mess, I'm not sure what they used, looks a bit like jb weld. It will be easier to clean off when you get the mirror off.

What a fustercluck. Is it rubbery or hard?. I have to agree it does look like jb weld. If so, you'll have to search the net on how to dissolve if possible. You may have to heat it to liquefy it....which will likely damage the paint....

I hate to say it but i think your hope of saving the paint is minimal. I would try the dry ice, it won't cost much , you only need to buy a piece 1/2 the size of a brick, I think that might make it brittle enough to remove. You can buy it at some Harris Teeter grocery stores, Take a small cooler with some ice in the bottom . Wear thick leather gloves and don't let your skin touch the dry ice. IF you get the cement to contract faster than the surface of the door it may let go.

I tried scraping it with a razor blade, but I stopped when I was taking up clear coat.

Dry ice sounds like a fun future project. I'll keep it in mind.

The new mirror part should be arriving tomorrow, so at least the mirror will be attached better. It's just going to look really nasty. Oh well.

Hey Dave4422. I would invest in a good heat gun, at least 220°F. I have seen this quite a few times. It does take some patience, you don't want to burn the epoxy or paint, just get it soft enough to scrape off. A combination of heat and pressure. Since epoxies are thermosetting resins, they have a softening point called the glass transition temperature (Tg). Heating above the Tg will soften the material slightly and allow the epoxy to be pried or scraped off. I would use a plastic putty knife, and have also used wooden pop-cycle stick in tight places, with one round end cut off straight, and filed down to make a small scraper. Just do one small area at a time. Once the bulk of it is removed, you can use some acetone or mineral-spirits and a rag to remove the left-over film, again...only work a small area at a time, and spray with lots of water between applications as not do damage the clear coat. When finished, apply a good coat of paste wax to restore to shine and strengthen the clear coat. Best of luck to you!

Thanks for the suggestion Alpha. Part of the problem is that I don't know what that stuff is. All I know is that it's hard and doesn't scrape up very well. I'd be mighty nervous about taking a heat gun to a plastic panel. The last thing I want to do is to make it worse. However, I've seen people take dents out with heat, so maybe the panel will withstand it without damage. I dunno.

I won't be able to address this issue for a while yet. Summer school starts Monday and I have to move to a new apartment next month (in the middle of said summer school, no less!).

However, I am open to suggestions and techniques to try and remove and restore the mirror area.

You're welcome Dave! You said it's hard, and looks gray from the pics, I can also see drips, it is a two part epoxy of some type, no matter what type, when heated it will soften. Get a heat gun with different tips, the smaller the tip, the more concentrated the application will be. Yes, plastic will also melt, that's why you do a small area at a time, not the entire area all at once. It's trial and error, the smaller the area, the easier it is to work. Heat for 5 sec. and scrape, if nothing...5 more and try again. Start with heat gun on lowest setting first. If nothing, try the next setting. If you were doing the whole door, yes I would worry about warpage, but not the top of the door. Tops and corners are less apt to warp than the center areas. Most molded plastic will realign when heated, "Memory Retention" unless it's heated to the melting point. With 5 sec. intervals, you won't get it that hot. After you scrape off a small area, douse or spray with water to cool down the surrounding area. Just don't rush it, and you'll be fine. Trust, live and learn Grasshopper...LOL! Best of luck on your new Apartment too.

wow, I thought acetone would wreck the clear coat. But you have the experience, Alpha, e so I must defer.

The glass transition point is where the polymer transitions from having properties mainly those of a solid to those of a "glass" --- glass being loosely defined. Basically, it'll flow.


Make sure between your use periods that you let the gun run on the "no heat" setting to cool the filament down ---ESPECIALLY before putting it away. This should help to lengthen the life of the heating element.
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Alpha -- from where did you obtain your knowledge of thermosets, Tg, and polymer elasticity? I fear you are an avid reader...........

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll be busy for the next two months, but come August, I'll have a little time to play around with it. I'll let you know how it turned out.

My mirror came in the mail and I put it right on. Here's some more pictures of the stuff.

Hey Derf, I have been called many things, but a avid reader, well, that's a new one. LOL! I guess that you pick-up a lot of things when you're over one-half a century old. The problem is trying to remember everything, haha. When I worked for the dealership as a heavy line mechanic, I had made good friends with some of the guys in the body shop, who taught me quite a lot, not just about painting, but fiberglass repair and fabrication, plastics, polymers, epoxies, and acrylic urethane's. They had just come out with a new paint called Imron on the Big Rigs. This stuff was highly lethal if inhaled, and we were required to apply it in a full containment suit with a fresh outside air supply. This stuff was some type of epoxy, like spraying liquid plastic. Very flexible, and practically chip proof. Defiantly not something for a home project. No degree in Chemistry, although I did take a few classes in College, but you are correct about being a avid reader. Not so much on politics, history or current events, but if it pertains to the automotive industry...I'm all over it! LOL!

indeed you have picked up alot over the years. I'd love to know about bodywork, particularly on the platic panels of our S cars. I have 3 deep parallel grooves/lines about a foot long that I ether need to fill in and repaint or ....I dunno. The body has almost 250K on it, there are various other small chunks missing from close encounters with bridge supports to avoid semis, and a tear in the back bumper.

It wouldn't be that big a deal to touch up but it is the stock color called Black Gold Metallic, and therefore any color mismatch or lack of metallic particle distribution will look stupid, as will painting those areas straight black. Pro body work and paint will cost more than the car is worth, and you can still see your reflection crisply in the rest of the paint as I've waxed it twice a year for 18 years.

So what's a guy to do?

_______

By the way Dave-----I''m glad you got the new mirror on that easily. Hoping for no leaks.
Any chance you could call the former owner and inquire as to if he remembers what was used as the epoxy?

Probably not derf. My brother picked it up from a junk yard. He said one of the employees had started to fix it up for his own use, but my bro stole it from him. So I don't know if it was the junk yard that did it, or the owner before the junk yard. And since the yard is in a town in northern Illinois, it's just too much trouble.


If anything I can use the mirror piece I have as a test for these removal suggestions before I use it on the door panel.


Or I'll just live with it.

good idea w the test piece approach

Wow Derf, the possibilities are endless! There are sooooo many deep scratch repair kits available in this day and age, it boils down to time, money and / or user friendly. For scratch removal, I prefer Meguiar's Ultimate Compound. I have attached a link that explains the process, and the reason why to stay away from typical rubbing compounds. I think you will be impressed.
As far as the tear in the back bumper, I prefer using a plastic welder, but there again, is it worth the investment? There are several options, best in my opinion, besides welding, is of course epoxy, LOL. Now keep in mid, that the bumper covers are a different type of plastic than the body panels. Plastic welder for body and bumper, epoxy only for flexible bumper covers. I provided another video that shows step by step. There are tones of stuff out there concerning these issues, the problem is finding the best solution, for the most cost effective results.
For the chips, gloss black touch up paint. Let cure for two days, then Meguiar's Ultimate Compound with light buffing to blend in. It will look showroom new again! You can't go wrong...watch the videos, you'll be impressed by the results! I have used Meguiar's for years, and have never been disappointed.

thank you. I will watch the vids after some shuteye. But the parallel grooves are not scratches, they are deeeeeep grooves in the rear quarter panel, with a whole bunch of material missing. Volume is prob enough to butter 3-4 english muffins (a standard bodywork unit of measure). They need to be filled and painted.

The bumper tear is vertical. It is only the length of the vertical section of the bumper. I could see epoxy and gloss black on that; actually i might be able to epoxy it closed w minimal paint period.

Back to the large grooves -- there is no way I could get away with even a feathered swath of gloss black. Uncljohn has the same paint color. It looks black, gold, or both depending on how the light hits it, so any solid non metallic on it will stick out like a sore thumb. I'll post some pix (start a new thread since I accidentally threadjacked this one and move our posts over there).

I've been scanning this thread and probably missed something important. The grey goup on that pretty red paint? That stuff looks to me like Bondo. Or an equivalent brand, probably thinly mixed by some one who had more wishful thinking than talent. And is as far as I am concerned the kiss of death to the finish on the door.
Acetone will to some extent be helpful in removing the stuff, but Acetone will take the paint off of the door faster than you can clean up a spill. If you have ever dropped brake fluid on a paint? It makes brake fluid look slow.
My personal feeling, it is an ideal opportunity to learn to paint. The + and -'s. A good automotive paint store can package the proper color paint for the car in spray bombs if you ask for it. So if you go through the effort of getting that disastrous grey goop off the door, you can use Acetone to both finish the clean up and it will also remove what is left of the paint anyway..
It will also go after the plastic in the door skin, so being careful is the word's of the moment.
Once the plastic goop is gone, something like a 220 paper wet dry with a flexible sanding block to block sand things smooth along with a bucket of soapy water to keep things wet, some 400 paper wet/dry - wet to smooth out the 22o scratch marks and maybe a skim coat of bondo if needed to smooth things out before you start block sanding.
That same automotive paint store can supply one with a body filler primer sprayed on using GREEN masking tape for masking and old newspapers work despite what people say. Once done a spray can (packaged by the paint store if they will) of single stage Acrylic enamel (the shine is in the can) will go a long way towards making the car look nice short of repainting the whole car. Some work, dedication and a little luv applied towards fixing that Gawd awful mess will bring the car back nice.
My Saturn, with the "Black/Gold" paint looked nice after I painted it and then 3 ears later exhibited the symptoms of the screw up I did when I painted it now looks worse than it ever did.
Age has not been kind to the plastic. But I just came back from the Chrysler dealer today looking at new vans realizing I can't afford to replace my 8 year old one with 100,000+ miles on it and I don't have to, it ain't broke so no sense in fixing it. But looking at a show room full of four door sedans with nary a coupe in sight made me realize, I would rather have my 1994 Saturn SC2 Coupe repainted than a new 4 door sedan.
It has been reupholstered, it doesn't burn oil, the transmission and the A/C works and I can get a satellite radio adapter for the AM/FM/CD player in it.
And while it doesn't have all the new expensive safty gizmo's that some idiot and the cohort's there of decided I could not live with out, at 73 years old I already have lived with out them. So I'll spent 40 hours wet sanding it and then shoot another coat of black gold on it and good to go, Besides it's actually Valeries car not mine and it should look nice for her. She is going through all kinds of torment with this danged disease and she is talking about taking it together to various places. Why not, every time I drive it I wonder why they did not sell enough of them to be profitable.

What about black gold metallic? Can they do that in a can. I imagine you'd have to shake it up for 10 min to ensure the metallic flakes were evenly dispersed, paint quickly. I have a rear quarter on my 97 w three long deep grooves in it. Haven't decided what to do. It was my understanding that the base color is laid down, then the metallic, then clear coat.

I will never match the original coler so I'd like to replace those grooves with a little bodywork and some black gold metallic. Even if it's close , it won't be the whole panel that doesn't match, just the spot in the panel I repaint (plus the attempted feathering

Feelings?

Thanks uncljohn for your suggestion, but I think I'm just going to leave it. It sounds that any removal technique would be more trouble than its worth.