Saturn S Series Sedan SL, SL1, and SL2

ECM going bad?

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  #11  
Old 04-27-2016, 08:49 PM
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If I nail it down I will share.
 
  #12  
Old 04-29-2016, 03:35 AM
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I'm probably having a "thick" moment, but it is my understanding (and the experience of many a poster on this and other forums) that if a CKP is malfunctioning, the PCM does not receive a "valid" signal from the CKP, the PCM just cuts spark and fuel and the engine stops. There is no in between that would account for stalling at cold launch and key/off on restarting. The CKP is either in failure mode or it's not. The stalling to me sounds like more of a A/F mix issue, which could be perturbed by many a condition.

Being an SL1, could this be an intake manifold gasket tiny tiny leak that self seals (so to speak) when everything expands as the engine warms up? I know the misfire code is random misfire but you never know.

Aside:
I drove my 97 around on a completely dead cyl (injector unplugged) for 9 months, knowing I was going to do a swap in. I had to keep the code reader plugged in 100% of the time because it would either throw a random misfire or a cyl 4 misfire code or both (usually). The key was which one it threw first.

If it through cyl4 first, I could drive around reasonably normally. If it threw a random misfire first, it would cripple the accel (presumably removing all of the timing advance) and basically requiring me to periodically pull to the shoulder, erase, and drive on, hoping for the cyl 4 to pop first. Yes, there were times I had to disconnect the battery so inevitably I would have to keep playing this game. You would think that throwing a random misfire at any point would lead to crippling performance but that was not my personal experience.
End of Aside

I throw this out there in contradiction to my own suggestion that this may be due to a sticky injector, leading to the rich smell and misfiring. The intake manifold possibility would not however account for the rich odor. The only time my s cars smell rich are in open loop, when they are in fact running rich, and in the rare event I manage to do the equivalent of flooding it, and have to plaster the gas pedal to the floor to clear it. It will then sputter sputter but eventually turn over, but it smells obnoxiously like fuel---which ---considering how much I just dumped, kinda makes sense.
 

Last edited by derf; 04-30-2016 at 09:26 AM.
  #13  
Old 04-29-2016, 04:18 PM
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The car had a dead miss at idle, so I replaced the intake manifold gasket last summer. I ended up discovering that a narrow gapped spark plug on no. 1 was the cause of the miss. The intake manifold gasket came out in pieces.

I'm a diesel guy in my knowledge, so in the big truck world, when the crank pos. Sensor goes bad, the ECM defaults to the Camshaft position sensor to get you home. Is is that way with Cummins engines any way. Never been a Cat guy, and never had electrical problems on a 60 series Detroit. I assumed that small gas cars would be the same, but then again, heavy Diesel engines don't have timing chains.
 

Last edited by Dtruck1; 04-29-2016 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Grammar correct.
  #14  
Old 04-30-2016, 09:25 AM
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in an s car, when the PCM does not receive a valid signal from the CKP such that it can determine where the crank is in it's rotation, it has always been my understanding that the PCM says "oh crap, now I don't know where the pistons are; I better not let anything fire" so it kills the fuel to the injectors and kills the spark (prob by disabling the ICM).

End of story.

This is why it's so annoying when they flake out as they die, because it usually tracks with heat, so you'll drive 10 mi to the grocery store, buy only dairy products, and come out to an S car that cranks and cranks and cranks. But won't start. But if you let everything cool off for 20 min, the CKP may begin functioning again so the car will fire right up, you'll drive home with your warm dairy products, not really knowing what the issue was unless you had the tools to check spark (the socket and extensions are kinda key), because you're not gonna crawl under the car in a parking lot and be able to reach the CKP connector to see if the R is in spec.
 
  #15  
Old 04-30-2016, 07:24 PM
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Ah, reminds me of coils on old 2 cylinder Deeres. Run fine cold, but get them up to operating temp and they start missing and backfiring.
 
  #16  
Old 05-12-2016, 11:52 PM
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any news to share?
 
  #17  
Old 05-13-2016, 10:45 AM
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No, the alternator finally gave it up, so I am replacing that this weekend. The car has ran fine for the last 2 weeks. Still averaging 39.6 mpg at 75 mph. Also going to do the hid retrofit this weekend as well. Future right up pending.
 
  #18  
Old 06-01-2016, 08:32 PM
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Replacing the alternator has solved the battery light issue. It did the misfiring once last week. I was off the throttle because a car was turning off the road in front of me. When I got back on the gas, it started missing. Pushed the clutch in, killed the ignition, and restarted and it was running fine. So, maybe injector, or injector wiring harness, or injector driver in the ECM. Who knows. With it happening so sparsly, I may never track it down.
 
  #19  
Old 06-01-2016, 10:56 PM
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Try throwing in some Techron fuel system treatment w your next fillup.
You have seen an improvement since your last fuel injector cleaner addition.

No, of course I can't prove the two are related.
but we CAN try to isolate the issue to one portion of the vehicle......
 
  #20  
Old 06-02-2016, 05:26 PM
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I credit the mpg gain to the warmer weather. It was getting down in the low 50s here at night. Colder weather always nets worse economy, but not too hot to have to run the AC on the way home.

Engine went into a missing fit twice on the way to work this morning. Seems to happen under higher throttle application. This morning it did it after I set cruise, and as I was going up a pretty steep hill both times.
 


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