03 Vue Trouble Codes
 

I've had some trouble codes for a while, but couldn't seem to find anything solid as to what the issue is. I attached a screen shot from the Torque app on my phone showing what's there. Not worried about the P0700, since I think that's nothing more than a pointless catchall trouble code. And the P2176 is following replacement of the battery, and it hasn't been warm enough to run the relearn procedure (such as how I understand it).

I'm just not sure what the deal is with the P1780 code. The only real trouble I've had is it was hard to start (but solved with the new battery), and it often goes into something of a limp mode where it doesn't really kill its operation so much as it seems to prevent downshifting into a passing gear. Otherwise it seems to be running just fine.

Any idea on most likely cause of the trouble code?


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sat...235f6ec17a.png

There seems to be some discussion for the P1780 as to the definition. It's different for different manufacturers. In this case I believe P0700 is the generic request by the TCM to illuminate the SES light to tell the BCM and you that the tranny has an issue.

P1780 can be EDIT { an issue with the ECM not reducing torque per trans request.} It can also be an issue with the park neutral safety switch.

Since your vehicle does not seem to have starting issues, I don't think the Park Neutral switch is the issue.

Since the p0700 is there, you should expect another tranny trouble code, which, if p1780 is as described above, is more logical. That would also account for limp mode.

I'm not sure what part it is that you're referencing. I've not heard of a transmission control switch.

But I've also seen stuff that indicated issues with the catalytic converters or even transmission solenoids. Plus other stuff and none of it makes sense, even when trying to narrow it down to a Vue. Part of me wants to think its the cats based on what seems to be a whistling noise when acxelerating. It's a little similar to what I experienced when the cats clogged on my Century a few years ago. But that situation tossed out a whole bunch of different trouble codes before it got fixed.

This should be more helpful. I'm familiar with the poster and he's pretty good.
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P1780 is about the transmission control module asking the ecm to reduce power for smoother shift feel and if the ecm fails to comply an error is generated and kept in the tcm. Cycling the ignition switch erases the error as the tcm is powered off but returns if the same condition exists. The troubleshooting check list goes on and on about physical connections almost everywhere.
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Apologies. Cut and pasted wrong 1780 description, then ran with it. Will remedy above post.

Ah. Yes, this seems to fall in line with my experiences. Because it's not consistent, will go away if I power cycle the car enough times. I don't daily drive it, but I did for a few weeks while I was trying to diagnose what ended up being a failed ICM in my actual daily, and the problem went away completely during that time, and the CEL turned off. This could also be why the one time I floored it, it went into a complete limp mode, instead of this other limp mode that seem to block downshifting to accelerate and limits throttle. Pulled over, shut it off, turned it back on and it was good to go again.

This extensive troubleshooting list you mention sounds a bit intimidating. Considering how tight space can get in that thing, can't say I'm keen on investigating a bunch of connections. Is there a link to this, or a list of the most likely fail points to chrck?

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180643

Post #2

The comment about the many connections to check is actually part of the quote, not from me. I'm quite certain he has a Fact Serv Man (FSM) which has the long troubleshooting steps he was referring to in it.

If nothing else, join saturnfans and post a new thread that describes the issue, state you think it is blah blah, paste in the link above and politely ask if anyone could supply you with troubleshooting steps from the FSM.

We don't have any Vue owners on our forum that are regulars or semi-experts. We just put our heads together and do our best . But we have 0 Vue FSMs here.

I'm sure someone over there can get you the info you need. Just do us a favor and please stop by and let us know what the root cause and repair were so that we can be of more help to the next person with a similar issue.

Feel free to hang around. I'm not trying to chase you--just pointing to the best place to get your info on this topic.

Cool, thanks for the heads up on that. In the meantime I have to screw around with having the pedal relearn completed. I had to replace the battery a few weeks back but it won't accept the relearn procedure. Kind of hard to get it to pass emissions testing when it's throwing a trouble code for it that won't go away. At least for now, with the daily driving, the other codes have gone away temporarily. Except for a P0221 that goes away when it's shut off. That one might point to why the pedal relearn keeps failing.

Ok, so... Update. And a bit of history.

I got this car for free. The original owner was quoted $2000+ for repairs, but gave to a friend and I to fix up instead. The dealer that gave him the quote said it was the throttle body. We found info that said the issue was more likely the intake manifold gasket. So, both were replaced, but the throttle body with a used part (cheapest new I've seen is $800). It seemed to be running ok.

Fast forward a bit, and if left to sit for a day or more, it would run terribly until consistently run for a few days. While my regular daily was laid up with a severe misfire I was trying to diagnose, I drove the Vue daily, and it was running well by time the other car was fixed, the CEL had turned off. Then I drove the other car for a couple days, went to drive the Vue two days later, back to running poorly and now the CEL is on again.

So, now it has come due for emissions testing (a perk of living within the Chicago metro area). I figured I'll do what I did before so it'll pass. Well, it was going well, until I had to replace the battery. Some fool tossed a used battery in it and it went bad on a cold day. So, swapped it out. Now I had to do the throttle relearn. It wouldn't take. But, I still managed to get it to a point where there was no CEL, and the emissions monitors were reading ready. Too bad for me that this happened late on a Saturday. The CEL came back the following Monday before I could get it tested.

So, I kept driving, hoping I could get another day to relearn the throttle. Finally do, but it still won't take. Now, it's starting to have trouble running. I'm seeing that trouble code for the throttle showing up. It eventually got to the point where it immediately went into a minor limp mode before it could even be put into gear. And it would go into proper limp mode, with the "Reduced Power" light, at least once a day.

I started thinking maybe the old throttle body wasn't a problem, and I still had it on hand. It somehow ended up in a box of stuff for my 78 LTD wagon. Grabbed a new TB gasket from NAPA and swapped them out on Thursday night. Drove it around, it ran great. Did the throttle relearn, and it seemed to take, cleared out the trouble codes, and drove around again. Still running well, no new codes. Drove it to work yesterday, ran an errand on lunch, still no codes and now all of the emissions monitors are ready. Got it tested, it passed.

I'm happy I was able to get it to pass and renew the plates. Now, I figure I'll let it sit for a few days, see what happens. I'm curious to see if that used throttle body is what was causing those trouble codes at the beginning of this thread. If they come back, then I'll get to pinging the guys at Saturnfans for the more detailed troubleshooting procedure. Otherwise, at present, it's running better than it has in about a year.

Glad to hear.

In re-reading my posts above, I seem to have thoroughly and completely addressed the tranny related codes while totally ignoring the P2176 code.
Epic fail on my part, for which I apologize.

But you continued troubleshooting what you had in front of you, subbed the throttle body, saw the effects, regasketed the original and seems to have fixed the issue. Since the engine vacuum is highest at idle, maybe there was a vac leak at the throttle body gasket that was destabilizing the rpms just enough to be outside the acceptable window for the throttle relearn to not be considered valid. Once the gasket was replaced, no more vac leak and no more issues with the throttle relearn. Don't know, just speculating.

The tranny code may be triggered by an "unlearned" throttle control system -- maybe to protect the tranny until the throttle actuator idle position is relearned and the tranny knows what rpm idle is at. Again, speculating based on your outcome.

Once again, I apologize for ignoring half the info you provided.
It's quite ironic, as we usually have to pull information out of forum users to get enough of it to determine the problem.

Please stick around the forum. You have the ability to think logically and troubleshoot 1 thing at a time. I'm not being sarcastic)
You'd be surprised at the number of posters that have already thrown $250 in parts at a problem they do not and and apparently do not want to understand prior to posting

Again, apologies for the incomplete addressing of your issue.
It drives me crazy when I give out incomplete or bogus advice.
Having modded this forum for about 14 years straight, I've learned much more than I knew about Saturns, particularly the S cars, than when I started.
This is yet another example that proves there are always things still to learn, and also that I am not perfect (that's another issue.
We are a group of shadetree mechanics, lifelong professional mechanics, and learn by fire real-time folks faced with issues not encountered before.
I used to try to answer Ion questions, trying to learn the car and its quirks. It became a running joke on the forum because my rate of correct diagnosis started at about 20% and is still below 75%.
Luckily the two Ion Gurus (brothers) who left at the same time were replaced by another ion (and other things) guru that handles most of those cars.

Sorry for the extended commentary.. Just giving you the background on our little forum family.
Consider sticking around.....

Derf

Yeah, I've had almost two decades of tinkering with my own cars, and this one is just one of five vehicles I currently have and work on (two GMs and three Fords). Everything is as old or older, especially two of the Fords. So, yeah, I try to trace down issues enough to be sure before doing the actual work. There's been a few times when it seemed obvious and I was wrong, but it's usually more labor spent than parts. Like my Buick. Had a horrible misfire and it was chugging gas. Thought it was the fuel pressure regulator, and it was a royal pain to replace, but it actually the ICM (which had recently been replaced but was out of warranty). And in other such instances, it's crap that needs attention anyway, and I cross my fingers that it'll solve what I'm hoping it will. I've seen so many forum posts where someone was told to just google it.

As for this issue, I'm not sure it was a gasket issue so much as it was just a bad throttle body issue. I think it was an untested junkyard part. I'm not talking to the guy that got it anymore, since he's a jerk.

But, this thing still needs some work, and some of it I need to find a cause.