Cranks won't start
 

Have a 2002 SL2. Have owned car since 2010. Battery 2 years old, plugs less than 5000 miles. Car has aftermarket remote start that I installed 4 years ago.

car turns over but will not start. Pops and almost backfires but will not start. Will run if you spray starting fluid in intake. plenty of fuel pumping after fuel pump and at fuel rail. Is there something that shuts fuel rail/injectors off? Or what could be the issue?

If it will run on starting fluid does it quit when you stop spraying or continue to run? Can you touch the injectors on your car while running it on starting fluid? They should click and you can feel it.

Right off, I'd suspect either the fuel pump or the pressure regulator. The regulator is about $90, so don't just go get one without further testing. I'd grab one from a junker first and test it that way.

It stops running when the starting fluid is stopped.

I need to run more tests, but it has been -15 degrees for the past week and the car is in a parking lot.

This is the 4th time in 7 years this car has done this. Has not really been a real solution or fix in the past yet it started running in the past after time.
First time I cleaned and replaced a coil pack. Second time it sat for a week then started, third time (last summer) tried the key from the remote start under dash and it started and has ran since while using both keys. this is the 4th time and looking for answers. or an idea
Has anyone else had a similar situation....cranks, pops and almost backfires, but will not run, runs while popping some starting fluid in fresh air intake.

here is some more detailed info.

The more I think about this it seems to happen in extreme weather - hot and cold.

The first time this same issue happened was before the remote start was installed. 5 years ago in summer same issue, I read that a coil pack grounding can cause this. I dropped the coil packs cleaned the area and replaced them. Car started and ran for a few years until it happened again. This time in cold weather (-0) At that time I replaced the coil packs again, but it did not solve the problem. Towed it to a repair shop. They pulled the plugs let the car warm overnight, replaced the plugs car started. Third time, summer of 2016, hot out 90+. Checked fuel pressure at pump and rail and was good, changed plugs, NOTHING. sprayed stating fluid in fresh air intake and it would run until you stop spraying. Towed to repair shop. It sat there for 3 days. They ran diagnostics and no codes. At that time I told them to grab the key from the remote start module under the dash. The car started right up with the key. Forth time is now and I have not even started to troubleshoot as it is -15 out. My thought was to ask if anyone had any ideas before I dug into it. I have many things to try and I hope the weather warm so I can work on it. I will post what I find. If it gets to 30 degrees outside and it starts, I'm throwing my hands up and label it a a phantom issue.

I should add that all 4 times it has had the same symptoms. Turns over, at about every 3rd engine revolution, it pops like it will start, but does not. Forgot to mention that if you push the pedal to the floor, it will start to, what sounds like, a small backfire at the intake.

cyclicly pump the pedal to the floor two or 3 times and then hold it down. I think it is a flooding issue. My S cars do this every once in a while,. If you don't get it running on the first or second try, too much gas accumulates and you have the equivalent of a flood. Holding the pedal down clears it. It''ll take like 8 seconds but if you torture your starter and hold the pedal down , it will sputter, spit, boom and rock, but when it starts, there will be a huge plume of fuel rich smoke out the tailpipe.

THe fact that you say it happens in temperature extremes also leads me to believe your ECTS may have failed and is reading -40 all the time to the PCM, so the mixture is always wrong. THis will be a super rich mix all the time but will have the most effect when it is really hot out (WAY too rich) and way cold out. Still too rich even for -15. Plus on those cold mornings it is very easy to run your battery down trying to clear the flood so hook up jumpers till a running vehicle.

Even with a functional ECTS, I was unable to start my 97 SC2 at -22 F because it did nit want fo fire on the first try, then I flooded it, then I killed the battery. Once hooked up to jumper cables, I did the flood clear above and after a fight it started.

How would that explain when spraying starting fluid in the fresh air intake it runs and then goes back to not when the starting fluid is not used? Thanks

did you try my suggestion?

I'm GUESSING the reason is that it runs with starting ether because the A/F needed for it to ignite in the cylinders is much less critical than the gas/fuel Aire/Fuel ratio.
Once you ignite the either, the fuel delivered to the cylinder will burn. It will burn non optimally but it will burn nonetheless.

Given that this seems to happen at the temperature extremes really leads me to believe your ECTS or the connector is bad or the wiring for the circuit is damaged. When this happens, an open circuit ends up telling the PCM that the coolant temp is continuously -40. Always. When it's -15 out. When it's 110 out.
Probably the most common failed part on an s car.
The A/F mixture is overly rich in both scenarios and can lead to hard or no start conditions. Very common on the S cars.

Inspect ECTS and connector after removing the squeeze connector. The connector terminals should be free of corrosion, orange stuff, green stuff. The sensor should be pulled (catch the coolant, do it on ice cold engine). You should find a fully brass tipped sensor. If you find a resin tipped sensor, I will almost guarantee you it has failed -- they ALL did.

I would replace it even if it is brass tipped.

Source the parts from a GM Dealership and replace the connector pigtail too. $45.00.

I'll give it a try tomorrow morning. It's still 9 below zero now and suppose to be in 20's tomorrow

I'm amazed at how many problems the frigging ECTS can cause on these cars. You can find the parts you need at most Saturn friendly GM dealerships. I had to order mine, but that cured the problems I was having.

Tried the flooded start. Mash the pedal to the floor crank for about 10-15 seconds. Nothing. Tried it about 3 seperate times. Nothing. Battery got weak hooked up jumpers. After one of the tries, tried cranking without touching pedal and it got really close to running with the key still turned. Let go of key and it sputtered a few times and died. Went to check connection on the ECTS and snapped of the end of the sensor. Ill repalce and see if that helps.

So if the car was pulled into a warm shop, plugs pulled to dry cylinders, left over night, plugs replaced and it fired up point to ECTS? I was looking through notes from a few years ago and that was another time it did this 3 years ago. At that time it was about 20 below outside when it happened. So extreme temp again. Fyi...today 18 degrees out

Per my previous post, yes ECTS and connector w pigtail replacement is next step. I was trying to avoid you spending money you didn't need toi.

Get the ECTS and connector pigtail via GM source, either in person or from GM online parts store. I can't remember if this is an AC Delco or Delphi part but the 2nd design part numbers are all over the net. I use rockauto.com for some parts and also to ensure fitment. 1991-2002 s cars all used the same sensor. Technically the air temp sensor in the air intake ducting is the same part nut is the first Generation POS that fails. Use it only if you are dead broke. It may throw a code for IAT out of range.

I'm going to bet the ECTS in there is not from GM. Probably Autozone or similar. I am NOT criticizing; simply pointing out that what you received was a general purpose temp sensor with a different R vs temp response, one desighed to cover 17 models in a half ass manner. Usually poorly made. The current sensor may have went open circuit or the contacts on the connector were all gummed up with corrosion

There are a few parts on S cars that you cannot cheap out on long term -- the ECTS is one of them, It's reading is weaved into control of many systems in the car..
The only way to learn this is to have your type of experiences, unfortunately.

All part of the learning curve in understanding your Saturn under the hood. The orig may not fail for 10 years, and a POS replacement may be close enough to last 5 years,
You obviously are mechanically and theoreticlally inclined. As the forum regulars will attest to, we've addressed the ECTS issue many many times, though the presenting symptoms are not always the same.
I always try to solve the problem without throwing parts at it. Hence the starting attempt.

Since you have previous ECTS issues, not surprised, especially if the ECTS was from Autozone. The different R vs T behavior will bite you in the ass at the higher and lower ends as the slope is not right for the S cars and therefore the air/fuel mix is just wrong.

When you get this running, run a bottle of Techron fuel system cleaner through the system to clean out your insjectors,

Ordered new ETCS and plug. Tried starting it last weekend. Tried about 3 4 times. It almost started but after a few spits and sputters after letting go of the key it would not continue to run. Ill change the ETCS and maybe the plugs and see what I get.

Don't half-ass it on the pig tail change. Make sure you solder the connections and seal them with some heat shrink. I've seen people splice wires by just twisting them together and putting electrical tape on them. Please don't do that.

I use to own a car audio installation company years ago. I'm a pro at low voltage wiring and take no shortcuts. thanks.

Any nice clean bass 6/6,5" left in the basement?

Installed new ECTS yesterday with no luck. Checked all fuses -GOOD. Rechecked fuel pressure at rail - 42 PSI.

Recap - starts and runs when starting fluid is used, then dies after you stop the starting fluid.

Here is a video from yesterday of what it does:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wp3xppo4sj...35810.mp4?dl=0

Pull te plugs and clean and recheck gap is .040. Good old fashioned stock OEM copper plugs need to be in there ultimately but whatever you have is sparking so we'll deal with that later

Try to start 1 time with a 5 or 6-second crank. No ether just crank.

Pull all plugs. If the plugs are not wet with fuel, your injectors are either clogged or are not being told to open/close.
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Per chance, what is the security light doing when you crank and after you stop cranking?
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PASSLOCK issue is a longshot but I believe it kills both fuel AND spark. If you're getting it to run with ether, then it doesn't fit PASSLOCK problem very well. Just typing out loud.

You said the fuel pressure was 42 psi, When? The spec when IDLING is 40-55. IS it 42 when running on ether?

Can you hear the fuel pump priming at each transition from key off to key on? runs for about 3 sec, then shuts off.

Perhaps you have water in your gas, and your gas line froze or water gas/water mixture was sitting in the injectors froze. Or just bad gas entirely.

Is your air filter clogged up? Are you starving the engine of air? Remove all the ducting and spray the ether directly into the throttle body..

Any updates?

Any progress

Replaced plugs yesterday. Same outcome at first. Can popped and backfired, cranked for about 2-3 minutes. Removed plugs, dry. Put them back in and cranked some more. Same thing spit and stuttered, but would not run/start. Removed and checked plugs, dry. Put them back in and cranked, but decided to press gas to floor and hold it. I got a little life it ran on for about 3 seconds. I could smell fuel. Pulled plugs, dry. Put them back in and cranked again, floored it, them let off and pumped the gas 3 times and it backfired, hiccups, I let go of the key and feathered the gas, as it came around from an extremely rough idle and a giant blue cloud out the exhaust it was idling. Drove it around the block, started and shut it off about 5 times and call it fixed.

So in about 7 years and this happening 4 times I still have no idea why it happens or what fixes it. This last go around I replaced the coolant temp sensor and connector, plugs, tested all fuses, disconnected the remote start with non of it really helping. After cranking on it yesterday for what would normally fry a starter, it finally started. I'm sure I will be back here in a year or so, frustrated when it happens again. Such a strange situation that seems to have no real answer. Thanks to those that offered help.

You know, I forgot what color smoke it was. Blue smoke is OIL, not fuel. If the car is a significant oil burner, chances are oil got in the cylinder(s) either past the oil control rings or worn valve guide seals, and since your injectors would, for whatever reason, not open, you were essentially trying to burn only oil in the cylinders, maybe mixed with some fuel.

Doing what you did as I stated in my earlier post clears a flood -- the key being a flood of whatever happens to be in the cyls. In this case, now that I think about it more, I think it's more or less all oil, since the injectors have been shut down, possibly from trying to clear the flood last time you tried to do so as holding down the gas pedal shuts off the pulses to the injectors.

Once the flood is cleared the injectors open back up and when you finally get it to run roughly, a small amount of oil left in the cyl(s) burns with the air + fuel and you get the smoke plume.
The car is running rough due to the residual oil still left in the cyls mixed with what should be in there until the engine warms up enough that the oil burns more easily in the cyls like does in a typical oil burning Saturn.

That's the best I can come up with after 26 years of continuous s car ownership in one form or another. Pretty sad, but this is one I've never understood as it happens so infrequently and the behavior is just whack, since if the car has a true oil burning issue it should happen more consistently unless a valve guide seal temporarily gets out of position then goes back into place.

Andy?
Is the above plausible or do I need a new drawing board to start with?

Andy,

I have had this occur on my 97 SC2, 95 SC2 and I remember at least once with my 92 SL2.
None of these vehicles had Passlock of any flavor, nor a BCM. Just a starter disable feature when you locked/armed the system with the fob.

It behaves exactly as Eksnolp and I have experienced. That's why I was able to describe to him what to do to remedy the situation just by his description.

My guess/explanation may be dead wrong, but it is not limited just to Passlock II equipped S cars, so although the injector behavior is consistent with Passlock II security being tripped (or thinking it's been tripped), I personally do not believe that to be the root cause of this behavior.

I had never been in a position to have the time to stop and check if the plugs were wet after a few failed crank attempts as I was always in a hurry to go somewhere and knew how to fight through the odd behavior. The fact that we know at least in this case they were not just deepens the mystery, because when you first try to start it, it will fire a few times but stall. If you don't get it running, on the second cranking , it just cranks and does not fire at all. No sputter no nothing. Just cranks. The fact that it ran on ether indicates the DIS system was functioning as advertised, leaving some of the only explanations to be that either no air/fuel mixture was entering the cylinders or something else was at the same time, preventing the mixture from burning.

I used to assume it was unburned fuel building up in the cyls, and the plume of smoke and the sickly rich smell of fuel were from built up unburned gas. But I forgot my smoke colors. Shame on me..
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I now believe that somehow the injectors get into a shutdown state based on meeting some evil case set of parameters, possibly a flaw in the PCM programming, and they stay shut until you perform the "flood clear" with the pedal. The PCM likely sees the full range motions of the throttle via the TPS and re enables the injectors. In the meantime, oil has either snuck past the valve guide seals or been pushed up past worn oil control rings and enough has been accumulated in the cyls to screw up the firing of the cyl contents.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that, in my case, I learned I had to WAIT a short while after it failed to run after the 2nd cranking. I always assumed this again was a fuel flood condition clearing itself. I now think it may have been the oil slowly draining back down past the oil control rings.

So his overnight stays at the mechanic's basically served as wait times for drainage, and once clear enough the car would start, run roughly, and then smooth out.
I have recovered my S cars from this condition without ever changing a single part. On any of the cars.

Dunno and likely never will. But my identical experience with three non passlock non BCM S cars leads me to believe it is more than a security issue,

That's my take, anyway.

Injectors: Mult-port fuel injection.(assume sequential)
Ignition timing: only a physical CKP, no physical cam position Sensor.
2 coil packs, 2 cyls/pack (1/4, 2/3) waste spark
(Eksnolp did verify fuel pressure at rail during troubleshooting.- ok )

There are indeed PCM 1 and PCM B fuses.

PCM B is fusing a 12V feed from the battery to the PCM at Pin D6 (1st Gen). This is the fuse everyone pulls to clear SES codes as it kills power to the PCM.
This appears to be the power source to the PCM itself.

PCM 1 is fusing a 12V feed from the battery to the PCM at IGNITION B+ @ Pin A7. So that is the ignition feed to which you refer.

This particular 12V feed provides current to the DIS, PCM 1, B/U lamp, EGR, and PCM B systems through their respective fuses
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There is an injector fuse (INJ) which has a battery feed to both ends, one end of which is the feed to the fuses for the systems above, the other end of which splits between a battery feed connection and the 4 injectors themselves.

I believe this to be an error since the fuse would never blow AND as drawn, it provides no fused protection to the injectors.
I believe it should be indicated as a split off of the same feed as the systems mentioned above. If so, it would provide fused protection to all 4 of the injectors.
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Assuming the correction is valid:
The 12V feed to the injectors splits into 4, which go to the injectors, respectively, and connect to the PCM at Pins D13, D14, D15, and D16. As configured, I am assuming that the PCM grounds the each of the mentioned pins as necessary to complete the circuit and open the injector for the required interval to meet fuel needs.

So it SEEMS, at 4:27 AM Eastern Time, that the ignition system has its own 12V feed into the PCM fused by PCM 1, whereas the "switching" power used to control the opening and closing of the injectors is likely coming from the 12V feed that powers the PCM itself, and when each injector circuit is completed, the injector sources its operating current from the battery feed.
If that is correct, then the only ways to shut down the injectors electrically are
---for the battery feed to the injectors to go open (possibly corrosion at the fuse/junction block)
---for the PCM, for whatever reason, to stop grounding the pins and opening the injectors

My reference to an "evil case" scenario above is my way of saying this seemingly illogical behavior is in fact completely logical once one understands the logic behind it. Or it's a programming flaw. Dunno.

Conclusions based on assumptions based on assumptions based on assumptions are rarely correct. I know that.
But you have to start somewhere with the wrong answer in order to find the right one.

If it's not clear, I'm more than willing to make a complete ass of myself on this site in the quest for knowledge I don't have and the improvement of my troubleshooting skills.
I welcome the opportunity to do so, and thank those who are willing to provide guidance.

To add to the discussion, yes this is an oil burner. Have to put a quart in every month or so.

Eksnolp

Are you sure it was blue smoke and not black (fuel)?

I have done a bit of random surfing, finding numerous other postings of the same issue. Many state black smoke, none state blue.

It seems like a situation where the injectors are simply not being re enabled at the next ignition cycle like they are supposed to (as they are shut down when the car is not running (when you turn it off).
It is not till you start pinning the pedal down and feathering it that the PCM re enables the injectors. Dunno

All interesting possibilities.

FYI...I sure do like my 1960's cars better than the computer driven newer. Turn the distributor to get the timing just right and go.FUEL AND SPARK AND THAT'S IT

Andy, oh wise one,

That seems the most plausible explanation.
I MIGHT have deduced that several years from now, but your lifelong experience once again comes into play.
Eksnolp's observation of dry plugs was the missing element in all of this. Eksnolsp, THANK YOU.

The first time I ever experienced this was in 92 w my SL2. It was -17 F, I wish I had a scanner back then that could read PID's for OBD I but I had very little auto troubleshooting experience at the time.
Now armed with a surprisingly robust Bluetooth dongle (pricey but NICE and STABLE), and some capable Android SW, I will check the TPS reading if this should happen again.BEFORE I start pumping the pedal.

If I remember and still have the car. Drove it off the lot 21 years ago. Waxed twice a year for 20 years, some self-inflicted battle wounds, original paint, second engine, 265 K.
More likely to die in an accident than old age.

Should I expect airbags to deploy after 21 years? I get no errors but it only checks for working sensors and SIR control module, yes? (minor hijack -- sorry)

Good job, sir.