Crank Problem?
 

Hey guys hopefully someone can give me a direction on this!

my 97 sl2 runs like a champ 99% of the time. I have been having this issue for a while that is really getting hard to tolerate and I'm afraid if I dont get to the bottom of it, it is really going to leave me stranded soon.

The Problem:

Every 15-30 (very random) start ups my car will not crank!
I hear the fuel pump
Starter is turning like a bat out of hell
just "no catch"
Its not even attempting to skip or stutter. Nothing

If I wait a bit (different amounts of time) it (not to be funny) just decides ok its time to crank and starts right up.

Typically under normal conditions it cranks quick without any hesitation like its a brand new 2013 honest to god!

As far as I can tell it has no correlation to weather or temperature of the engine. It happens so randomly.

Once it cranks it runs perfect! I'm having a really hard time pin pointing it and any help will be greatly appreciated!

sounds like starter solenoid is on its way out, which prevents the starter gear from engaging with the flywheel. These are integral to the starter on S cars.

ok I'll look into that. I thought though that if the solenoid is going out then the starter will not turn at all. I thought it would just click making a similar sound as if a battery was dead. Mine sounds like its turning at full speed but I don't know a lot about the electrical components. Thanks for the help!

Okay Idk if this is related or not but today I got in went to crank it and it did a slow crank as if the battery was dead. But no click. I turned the key back and then cranked it again and it fired right up without hesitation. What in the world? Something is definitely wrong with it. I wish I had more knowledge in the electrical components of a car. Everything else i'm good but electrical im lost!

OK -- check the positive main battery cable by flexing it ... if it feels extremely stiff and "crunchy" when you flex it, it's possible that battery acid has gotten under the cable jacket, and is eating the cable up kinda like a termite will do to a 2x4 in your house. When that happens, the starter does not receive full power from the battery, and the cable needs to be replaced ....

It sounds to me like the Bendix spring has gotten weak. When the solenoid clicks in, it pulls a small gear into the flywheel (or torque converter) ring gear to crank the engine. A weak Bendix spring can cause the starter motor gear to not go far enough to engage the ring gear so the starter spins so fast it literally screams.

This can eventually damage the ring gear and that means pulling the transmission to repair it. Generally the cure is to replace the starter motor because on a Saturn, you don't want to do that job over and over fixing the starter one piece at a time. Be sure to get a good quality starter like a top of the line reman, don't cheap out with the "value line"

Sounds to me like a bad cable or ground somewhere. BUT, I'm not a mechanic and have never claimed to be one. But I do agree with Keith as far as replacing the starter goes. Don't get one from Autozone, go to NAPA or a reputable parts house. I used to work for Autozone as a parts manager. I saw more starters and alternators returned in those five years, than anything else. I don't buy Duralast nor Valucraft starters or alternators from them. As a matter of fact, I don't buy any electrical parts from them at all. I get those from NAPA.

Yeah

What Keith said. To a T.

well the "dead battery" sounding issue happened to me a few more times now. So I took it to a parts store for them to check the battery. My battery definitely was bad. So I was hoping in some strange case it was the cause of all of it. But of course not. Cranks fine at the parts store, get home to eat a sandwich, get back in the car to head back to work. Wont Crank. So I think my one crappy issue just became two...

I like my car but i'm really getting frustrated with stuff going wrong all the time. Especially when I cant pin point it!

Starter issues are often the hardest to understand over the internet because people use the different terms, differently. The term "crank" for instance. To a mechanic, that means the motor is not turning over. To many others, the term "crank" means that the engine didn't actually start.

In the early days of both automotive and aviation engines, the engine starting means that we have ignition, meaning the engine is running.

Here are the conditions:

Turn the key to the start position and nothing, no sounds at all.

Turn the key to the start position and you get a single click, then nothing.

Turn the key to the start position and you get a series of clicks that slow down in frequency and eventually nothing.

Turn the key to the start position and you get a high pitched whine.

Turn the key to the start position and you get the normal cranking sounds, maybe at a slower rate than normal or at the normal rate but the engine fails to run on its own (no ignition).

Turn the key to the start position and the engine momentarily has ignition (catches) but sputters and dies.

and last,

Turn the key to the start position and the engine starts right up, we have ignition.

Well mine intermittently does two of these items depending on its mood.

Turn the key and it "cranks" as in i hear the starter turning & and feel the engine spinning but never starts up

Other times it will begin to "crank" then slowly comes to a stop as if the battery is dead. But if this happens and I turn the key back and then foward again it turns over as if there is no issue with battery. Also the battery is brand new as of today and still having the issue...

I still think the battery cable is bad. Check it out as I suggested ...

In light of your latest post, I am inclined to look at all the connections, both hot and ground. I think I would start with the chassis ground just under the air filter box. Also check both ends of the jumper strap that goes from the engine to the chassis at the front motor mount.

Just a little theory here, but it is possible that you are not getting ignition because the starter is robbing too much power from the circuit and the ignition system is not getting sufficient voltage. This could be due to a bad chassis ground. In this case, when you hit the starter, the engine is well grounded, but if the chassis is not, then the chassis ground begins to "float". Make absolutely sure that the chassis is "clamped" to ground by adequate cables and clean connections.

Then work the hot connections to be sure they are good. The one on the starter will be hard to get to so work the one in the underhood fuse/relay box first. I suspect from your latest description that the problem is more likely on the ground side.

One reason the starter could be turning slow is lack of spark. During the start cycle, the starter motor actually gets a boost from the ignition system. Without ignition, the starter will turn slower.

Do not completely rule out the battery, there is an early failure mode for batteries that involve a manufacturing defect, but I have never seen it manifest itself quite this way, but in theory, you could have an intermittent restricted internal connection. Usually these fail outright but in theory, it could be intermittent.

When this happens, the battery will appear to be fully charged. If it is put on a charger, it will at first look likes it is charging and eventually the chargers green light will come on and the charger will shut off, just like a normal battery. It will measure full voltage with a DVM although it might measure less with an analog volt meter. The internal connection has enough surface area to pass voltage under no load or light load conditions, but when a large load, such as a starter motor, is applied, the connection cannot pass enough current so it gets very hot, its resistance rises through the roof and it drops too much voltage to be of any use. A load test would uncover this unless it is intermittent.

It would also be possible that the internal connection has just enough surface area to usually start the engine, provided the engine starts before the connection gets too hot. Any delay in starting and you have failure to start. The connection cools very rapidly so you might get a successful start within a few seconds (15-30) after failure.

This would be so rare that if your fail to start occurred before the battery was replaced as well as with the new one, then you can probably rule it out.

BTW, there are other manufacturing defects in the battery that can cause the same issues such as the acid chemistry not correct, the metallurgy contaminated during the manufacturing of the plates etc.

Check battery post terminals and wires and it could be the starter. Sounds starter-ish to me.

Went through yesterday and checked all connections and cables. Everything looks real good for a car with 180k. No dry rot or anything like that. So tonight I'm pulling the starter and replacing it. Hopefully that will fix it. If not we'll go from there...

Let us know if that starter replacement works. I'm curious as hell.

We postponed a day or two. My new boss has a lift at his place so we are going to head out there to do it in the next few days. I have a bad feeling there is no correlation between my initial problem and my now bad starter. The starter is probably bad now because in irritation from it not starting I would just hold the key in the start position for lengthy periods of time waiting for it to start. It would just crank over and over. I probably wore it out myself doing that. But hopefully in some amazing luck it might fix it!

I will definitely let you guys know once its complete!

Okay so I have a fun update on the issue for everyone...

1. Was told about a good shop that would change my starter for a good price

2. Decided if it was inexpensive, why not pay someone else

3. Got a price. $90 bucks and have it back same day

4. Sounds good to me

5. Bring it to the shop

6. Get a call saying the key was stuck in the ignition. Has that ever happened to me?

7. No never happened to me

Long Story short, $460 and two days later i'm going to pick up my car which still has the same "no start issue" WTF

they had to install a new ignition switch in my car because "it was bad" and had to get a new key cut from GM

I AM NOT ALLOW TO SAY HOW I FEEL RIGHT NOW ON THIS SITE!

but you get the picture

Couple questions. has the "no start issue" gotten worse? Has it gotten more frequent? Did you have the new starter installed?

I see your frustration, intermittent problems are always the hardest to troubleshoot. Once it completely breaks, then it is easy to find the problem but in the meantime, it's no fun.

Did you tell them to go ahead and put in a new switch? If not, I sure would not have paid for it. And it's not that difficult to replace the ignition lock cylinder and key. Just go to you tube. There's a dude there called richpin that has a ton of how to Saturn videos. Sounds like they effed your key cylinder up to me.

krazy Dan.............why would you say "I AM NOT ALLOW TO SAY HOW I FEEL RIGHT NOW ON THIS SITE!"




Am I feeling a ghost?

I'm pretty sure he's so frustrated right now that if he said how he truly felt about what has happened, it would be full of expletives, sw2cam. I don't think it's directed at anyone or information he's gotten here on the forum.

Gracious! Seems like some people just get all the luck. My sympathies go out to you

No these people up here are like my saturn fam! Love them all lol. I just didnt want to get kicked from the forum for saying all the terrible things that were trying to slip out of my mouth! Dirty Non family oriented words. My bad!

Well, we're all only human, Danny. I doubt that you're the only one that's felt that way. I let several fly while replacing the valve body on mine. And I did leave skin and hair on the radiator support. I can take a pic if you want to see it, because it's still there! LOL

Well I'd let a little fly as long as it doesn't get to rough

Update: may help solve??
 

Now that the starter/starter solenoid have been replaced the randomness of my car not starting seems to have stopped. I can pin-point now when it will happen 99% of the time.

All electrical check out good.
New battery
as stated new starter/solenoid
new ignition system and keys

cold starts cranks always
immediate cranks after shutting down the engine cranks always
warm cranks after sitting 15min -2hrs will not start right away

(and again this is a cranking no start problem) just to remind everyone

Hopefully this narrows it down for some help...

Thanks again!

Was that supposed to be:

immediate cranks after shutting down the engine STARTS always?

Assuming so, try this. On a convenient day after driving for awhile and stopping at your house, go out after one hour or so, crank the engine for a few seconds and then if it doesn't start, stop cranking. Then remove your spark plugs (be sure to blow the grit and dirt from around them before removing them) and see if any are wet with gas.

If one is wet with gas, then you have a leaking fuel injector at that cylinder.

If you find yourself in a situation where the engine has been off for the 15 min to 2 hours and you absolutely need it to start, get in, put the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it there for 30 seconds. Then with your foot still on the floor, stick the key in and crank. Be ready because if it starts, and I think it will, it will rev up quickly.