Clicking noise when wheels turn to either extreme
 

I think I mentioned in my new member intro that much of what I work on are things that seem to be bi-products of me "fixing" things. Well, it appears that I have created a new opportunity for myself.

The CVs on both drive shafts were loose and floppy so I put new ones in. I measured old and new as well as compared the dimensional specs and the new ones were correct for this car. Its a pretty simple job and things came out and went back in with no issues. However -- seems like there's always a however -- now when I turn the steering wheel to either stop limit while the car is moving there is a clicking sound that correlates directly to wheel speed.

I was hoping that between the axle replacements and the motor/tranny mount replacements that I had simply changed the orientation of something enough that I was missing the R&P stops and over-turning. However -- there's that word again -- it appears that there are no mechanical stops, certainly not any that are adjustable -- and the R&P itself limits the turn radius.

There are no issues or noises in any other circumstance -- only when the steering wheel reaches the turning limit -- right where you would normally expect to hear the PS pump lug your engine down a bit.

Is anyone familiar with this symptom or have a pretty good idea what may be causing it?

Thanks in advance...

You used remanufactured axles didn't you? They are crap. They use worn out axles, put in a thicker grease and new boots and call them reman. If they click on turns, the CV Joints were worn past their wear limits and should not have been reused.

There are some very good new axles made in China available and they don't cost much more than the remans, only a few dollars, usually less than ten$ extra. My preference is for the EMPI brand, they have always been good to me.

Here are some alternatives for new axles. the first link does not carry EMPI for Saturns but they do carry other brand new axles, probably made in the same factory in China, who knows.

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/se...eshaft+%26+4WD)

This company is very good also and they do carry the EMPI axles.

http://www.rockauto.com/ you will need to drill down to find the axles or just type the type car in the box at the top, it saves time.

If the old axles felt loose and sloppy, they were worn past the clicking stage and were dangerous, you did right to replace them. At least when they are clicking, they usually won't actually break, "usually".

"If they click on turns, the CV Joints were worn past their wear limits and should not have been reused."

Thanks Keith. One clarification though. You can turn in either direction and you do not get clicking until the steering wheel hits its stop.

With that clarification, would you say the same thing about what the issue is?

Yes but I would not consider it quite as serious. When you hear the clicking when turning a normal corner and accelerating, then it is a problem. If you don't hear it for normal driving, then you are good to go for now.

BTW, I have rebooted CV joints that were clicking myself back in the old days when replacement axles weren't so cheap and they lasted for years. A little annoying but they never broke. The only axle that ever broke on me was a reman that had worn past the clicking sound, it broke 30 days after I installed it. That is something you do not want to experience when driving in the inner city.

No I wouldn't want to experience that. In fact, I wouldn't want to experience driving in the inner city either. :)

The R&P is a 3:1 ratio and is running to its limits and then stopping. The only thing holding the strut at the top is a thick rubber pad and 3 little bolts. The R&P would be trying to twist the struts around every time you made a hard turn – which is exactly what I think is happening by the way.

I could see the struts twist a little bit when the wheels were turned and they made a few creaking, clicking sounds – nowhere near as loud as what I’m hearing when driving in a turn – so I removed both of them.

So now I have all three components isolated. The CV axles seem pretty tight, smooth and quiet, even when turned to the extreme. The struts seem fine but I think they should not twist as much as they do at the top. The R&P, besides moving a lot further without the wheels, makes a few slight noises and I don’t know if they would be amplified if the ram tried to push the tie rod further that the strut would let it turn.

I've got a friend coming over tonight to add another pair of ears and eyes as well as some relevant personal experience. Unless he zeros in on something I'll reassemble everything and then try turning the wheels to their extreme with it still up on jack stands, the motor running, in gear, and applying a little brake. That's the best I can do to simulate when it has been happening though I won't have any weight on the wheels and turning apparatus.

Sounds like it could be your strut mounts. Once apart you'll see just what they are made of and how they work.

Thanks sw2cam. The struts are about a year old (approx 20,000 miles) and were purchased as complete assemblies. When I installed them I just reversed the old strut removal process and shoved the top three bolts through the top mounting holes and torqued three nuts to 20 ft lb and then bolted the bottom flange onto the wheel hub and torqued those very large bolts to about 100 ft lb.

Is there more to it than that?

Is the strut assembly supposed to twist a little? Not only can I see the strut twist from inside the wheel well but if I look at the top the center bolt is twisting a little bit as well.

Struts move with the steering and suspension. If you bought MONROE struts with MONROE strut mounts you may have found your problem. MONROE mounts are a known problem.

Yes, they are Monroe. What specifically is the known problem with them? Do you know what the symptoms are?

Specifically?...............the mounts are junk.

There is a bearing in the top mount. The shaft where that top nut is, the bearing is right under it. It allows the strut to turn while the wheel is turning.

Any power steering rack or old recirculating ball type steering box will shudder when it reaches it limits. Saturn made the limits wider than the range of motion for the steering knuckles, it was the first car to do that so the steering doesn't shudder when the wheel is turned to its limit.

When you disconnect the tie rods, you can then exceed the limits of the steering knuckle and get it to shudder. Don't do that, its not good for the power steering pump or the rack.

The creaking that you are hearing could be from the spring seats. There should be a polyethylene pad under each spring, but sometimes that wears through. Spray a little oil on the tops and bottoms of the springs and see if the sound goes away.

I don't have an opinion on Monroe struts, I never use them so I can't say whether they are good or bad. I prefer KYB but they are just starting to make the all in one package. I do have a spring compressor so changing the spring is not an issue with me.

However, if you get the urge to change the struts for any reason, I would recommend these

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...425&cc=1317293

There is nothing wrong with Monroe struts, yet it has been reported over and over and over on every forum I've ever used that the Monroe mounts have problems with making noise and falling apart. It's not an "opinion" when derf, Rube, Rj, or myself say Monroe mounts are junk, it's just a simple fact.

I've had three sets. I bought one two replaced via warranty before I got my money back and bought a set of factory mounts and KYB struts. Had I known at the time I would have never dropped the factory mounts in the dumpster they were making no noise and may have outlasted the replacement kyb's.

Now if three out of ten people have problems with monroe and zero out of ten have problems with factory why would I buy monroe mounts. But it seems it's more like six out of ten have problems with monroe mounts. How many need to have a problem with them to keep you from buying them?

"How many need to have a problem with them to keep you from buying them?" -- Not sure what elicited that response.

Monroe is a good manufacturer of quality shocks and struts and I have used them for too many years to count and have had no issues. Now, having said that, I don't know that I have ever had to replace the mounts so the only experience I have with their mounts is this time.

I have a very specific sound that occurs only when the car is turning and the wheels are turned to their maximum turn position. The possibility that that sound might be being caused by the top strut mounts is certainly worth pursuing. But to do so it would be helpful if I got some information that would help to correllate these symptoms with the ones experienced by those saying they've had top mount problems.

So far the only specifics I've gotten is "they're junk" and "make sounds and fall apart" -- both of which could probably be said about me -- but neither of which I can correlate to the metallic click-click-click I get in hard turns which may be transaxle, may be CV joints or may be strut mounts.

I disconnected the tie rods and took the struts off last night. Both [new] CV driveshafts feel good and turn smoothly even in the most extreme flex position. The rack & pinion turns smooth and quiet from limit to limit. The strut assemblies look good -- the assembly is tight, all the rubber looks fine -- they are only a year old.

I don't know how tight the top mount should be. When removed from the car t is very difficult to turn by hand and you can hear the plastic making sounds as you do turn it -- the same sounds they make when installed and the wheels are turned.

However, the sound I have been asking about occurs only when the struts would have already turned to their stop position and would no longer be turning. Given that scenario, how would you explain the top mounts making noise?

I hate the sound -- if everything is in good repair and working properly you wouldn't expect to hear things like this -- and always want to fix things that my kids drive. But like you folks, I have no interest in just shotgunning replacements -- too much time and cost.

If you can describe the sounds, and situations in which you experienced them, that turned out to be caused by the top mounts -- any brand -- then that would be very helpful to me in terms of being able to relate them to this particular situation.

Monroe makes great struts and shocks. They have had problems with their mounts making noise. They have had problems with their mounts failing. I'll guess they did not make the same noise every time they went bad for every person that a had a problem with them. I'll guess that in some case they make noise only when turning right, and some times only when turning left. I'll guess some only made noise when going full lock one way or the other. I'll make that guess because like most all mounts they are full of bearings, and not every bearing that fails will make the same sound.

I think the point of sw2cam's post was to let you know to check and see if the noise is coming from your strut mounts. I also believe he's letting you know if you have monroe strut mounts it might be a good idea to buy another brand such as KYB or Factory that we do not see or read about having a problem. When I had noise from my Monroe mounts, I did not take them apart to find just what one of the many bearings or it's placement in the mount was bad. I took them back to the store intact so they would be covered under warranty.

Remember sw didn't tell you that your mounts were bad, but to check with a warning of the monroe brand.

Thanks rjion. I understood sw2cam's point to check them. I have explained how I removed them and checked them along with what I found. So when told [again] that I should check them, what am I checking for? I don't have another assembly that I can compare to.

How hard should it be to turn the top mount when the complete assembly is out of the car? Should it be easy, smooth and quiet? Have you ever heard of the mounts making a continuous metallic clicking sound -- at the same frequency as axle rotation -- when going full lock either direction?

They probably make better top mounts than what came with these assemblies but it appears that the ones I have are working and are not the source of the noise I'm hearing.

Noises are hard enough to describe and troubleshoot in person but much harder online. :)

For now it appears that the top mounts are fine and there is no reasonable hypothesis explaining how a mount could create the sounds I'm hearing. I think I'll move on to other possibilities.

I have appreciated all the responses. Thanks all.

Howard, I don't think its your struts that are making the noise, I think it is your outer CV joints. They can make a clicking sound even though they feel solid to you. But they will only make the sound if the car is moving, not if it is standing still. If it is only happening at the extreme positions of the steering wheel, I would not worry about it for now.

If the struts are still under warrantee and are remans, I would take them back. If you bought them at an Advance Auto Parts store, they have new axle options, not EMPI, but I have heard that they are good axles as long as you don't have ABS. Apparently some have had issues mounting the reluctor ring on them. The other parts houses may also have new options, just check with the store you bought them at.

Could be your wheel bearing too, but the way to check them is while driving, in a safe place, oscillate the steering wheel back and forth like you see race cars do when they are under the yellow flag. If you hear a slight roar that changes pitch and volume as you move the steering wheel back and forth, you probably have a bad bearing. If the sounds don't change, they are good.

Thanks Keith. I'm now pretty sure as well that its the CVs. The only question is the likelihood that both newly remanufactured ones would have the same issue and [apparently] to the same degree.

I'm gonna call down to the NAPA store tomorrow and see what my options are.

Thanks again.

NAPA is gonna replace both of the reman axles with new ones for no charge. I'll go down and pick them up this morning and put them on today.

Yeah! I think that is the right thing to do. Reman axles suck. BTW, it might be that only one axle is clicking, but it will do it in both directions.

I thought about it only being one of them since the mathematical likelihood of it being both right out of the box would be considerably less. I figured I'd do the passenger side first -- don't have to drain the ATF -- and test. Then I decided that if they are willing to exchange the 2 remans with 2 new ones then replacing both would be a good thing.

Well, problem [that it looks like I introduced] solved...

NAPA was kind enough to exchange the two reman CV driveshafts for two new ones. I installed them and, wa la, instant and total success.

No clicking, scrubbing, creaking or squeaking at either turn extreme.

It was one or both of the re-manufactured CV driveshafts.

The guy who did the front-end alignment said the strut assy, including the top mount, seemed normal to him.

I appreciate all the time and help I received from the folks on this thread.

Fini...

Congratulations! Glad to hear you got it all worked out.