97 SL - Engine Knocking and Today Loss of Power Around 50MPH
 

Greetings forum, I've been a long time lurker here and at Saturnfans. I'm not a car person, but I can follow instructions and have detailed records on my car.

Repeating my intro post quickly, I've owned a '97 Saturn SL since 2003 and it recently started having some engine troubles, which is causing my posting here. I've kept records on all the maintenance work and logged gas entries since 2011 using the wonderful aCar android application.

I got her back when she had 73K miles, and within the last month she just crossed the 200K threshold. I'd like to keep her going as long as possible, so I'm joining to try to get some help from Saturn gurus, since my mechanic is great but he's not a Saturn expert"

Issue: About 2 months ago the engine suddenly started having a knocking noise. Due to life circumstances, I had let the engine oil get about a quart low at the time this started happening, in case that is related at all.

I have uploaded two videos linked here that show the engine noise.
(Volume is lower on this video)

Details:

• The noise increases with higher RPMs
• The noise is sometimes louder, sometimes quieter, but now always present.
• The noise is present at idle.
• I took the car into my mechanic, and he believes a lifter is to blame, and said repairing the engine is probably the fix, but it would be expensive to do that, more than the car might be worth. He's not a Saturn expert though, so I'm hoping to get more help here.

I am not a car person, and I don't do my own oil changes; so please be patient if I'm not following along or using the right terms. I have tried adding several oil additives that are supposed to "reduce knocking" and help the engine, but those have not helped.


Then today, I was driving when suddenly there was a reduction of power on the engine, around 30MPH. This went away after a brief stunt, and then it happened around 50MPH when I was trying to get on the freeway. After letting the car rest for a while, I drove it back home instead of to my destination and it was fine that time.


I have an ODBII sensor but I don't know what to provide or how to make good use of it besides basic engine codes. I do have a P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected. I'm not sure if that would cause the sound I'm hearing or not, which is why I'm posting the videos.


FYI: No, I have not replaced the ECTS, nor was it probably replaced before I got the car. I have not had a reason to replace it potentially until now, if this would even be a potential fix for my problem?


Thank you for your help. I will provide as much info to help as I can, just let me know what to do!

So, my internet sucks and I can't watch the videos, but here's a good way to know what your noise is... Take a long screwdriver and put one end to your ear and the other to various areas of the valve cover... If the noise is heard more clearly through your screwdriver, (stethoscope), then the noise is likely to be a lifter... If the noise isn't to be found under the valve cover, then it could be a rod or main bearing... You might crawl under the car(on stands) and listen to the block the best you can with your stethoscope and if you hear he noise clearly there, the noise is positively a bearing...

EDIT: that reduction in power could have been the behavior exhibited while the engine is spinning a bearing... That's how I remember last drive in the S series I had...

Fortunately, used engines with well under 200k miles are very common, and not expensive... I paid $350 for a single cam engine with 89k on it a few months back...

my vote goes to a lifter thwacking into your cam.

Was the service engine soon light flashing on the dash during your 2 periods of loss of power?

Wow, that sounds like a decent deal. How did you find that, Craigslist? I have started looking there to see what I can find. I'm not sure how I would judge the quality of a replacement without just hearing it run, and hoping for the best.

Are there specific engines I would have to replace my 97's engine with? Similar years/models? Manual vs Automatic engine? (That might be a dumb question, but I am not a car person, so I'm still learning.)

No, I do not recall seeing the check engine light during or after that loss of power.

If it is a lifter, what are the options? Costly repair? Engine replacement/rebuild?

Thanks

Try car-part.com for the replacement engine... Since I live in WV, I used pick-up city...

IF the noise is a lifter(doubtful but I also had a lifter collapse in a 2.0L Ford Ranger, and the resulting noise from the follower slapping against the cam lobe sounded very similar to rod knock), it's fixable... Lifters can be replaced or rebuilt in some cases, and worn camshafts can also be changed out(and they do make performance cams for the 1.9, just google "Gude cams" or troll some on sixthsphere...

As for the auto vs. manual engines, they are identical, other than an engine from an automatic car will have a flexplate bolted to the crankshaft, and your car's engine will have a flywheel... The engines are the same otherwise, but the automatic engines might have more wear per mile, due to the likelihood of an inattentive driver at the helm, who might run it low on oil...

Your aforementioned power loss? I'm gonna guess it felt like someone stepped on the brake pedal for a moment, and less like a misfire, and that the noise started/got worse immediately thereafter... If so, it was likely your engine spinning one of its main, or rod bearings... Did/does your oil light come on?

Only reason I am so specific is that I experienced the same failure, at 95k miles... Oil light blinked like mad, then it all hit the fan, just like I described... My wife ran ours dry(not low) of oil on numerous occasions before the engine finally failed... It was a tough little SOB...

I have to disagee. Sounds more like an exhaust leak to me. I'd check all of the bolts in the exhaust manifold and the manifold to down pipe first. If it's a sticking lifter, try a can of Seafoam in the crank case. That MIGHT free it from sticking. Do you do a lot of short trip driving? Maybe the cat con is getting clogged.

In the first video it kinda sounds like its blowing all its compression out somewhere. How old are the spark plugs? maybe one has loosened itself up (quick and inexpensive to check)
Now on the second video it sounds like a knock. Def do the screwdriver trick (a pair of channel locks also will work well) and see if you can pinpoint the noise. The code that was pulled could point you in the right direction since it sounds like more of a compression leak.
If your mechanic ends up taking off the valve cover, I would have him check for play in the timing chain too, maybe the tensioner has given up or it streched and is slapping the casing.
If it comes down to replacing the motor, you can use any single cam from a 96-02 (96-98 will be complete drop in, im not sure if the 99-02 sohc motors had air injection. if they did, all that would be needed is to swap exhaust manifolds or weld the air bung shut)

Apologies for the delay in responding back. My newborn daughter is taking time away from the computer. :) Thank you for all your replies so far!

WOW. Not being a car guy, I wondered if there was a site like that for finding parts. There's a wrecking shop not too far with an engine at 60K for $500. Now I need to check with my mechanic how much it'd cost him to replace it. Great tip, thank you!!

I wouldn't be skilled enough to attempt working on camshafts myself. If I'm having a mechanic do this, would it be fairly labor intensive (aka expensive?)

Does the flywheel vs flexplate matter a lot if replacing one to the other?

The oil light did not come on. I was driving about 40MPH while accelerating onto the freeway, when the car wouldn't go past 40MPH despite increasing the gas pedal. I don't recall any misfire noises or similarly noisy bangs during that time, just a complete lack of acceleration.

If I do occasionally forget to check the oil and it'll get down .5-1 quart, but it hasn't been lower than that in years, and I try not to let it get even that low.

The majority of my trips are 15-30 miles right now. I'll be moving soon, so they'll be more 10-20 miles long.

How would I go about applying Seafoam in the crank case? I've added Marvel's Oil Additive, as well as one or two other equivalents into the oil tank so far, but they have not seemed to make any consistent, noticeable difference.

I put new NGK copper core spark plugs in back in July 2015. I'll check to see if any have come loose.

Several years ago there was a more minor ticking noise that started. I took it into a GM repair shop for diagnostic and they said the timing chain was hitting the engine casing, making that noise. That noise was different from the more recent noise I'm experiencing... and I think it's still there as well.

It looks like there are a couple 96-98 S series SOHC engines in the area. :)

I think the bolt pattern changed from 5 to 9 on the exhaust mani for 99-02--pls check.


More importantly how did we get from diagnosis to engine replacement.


The statement was IF it comes down to changing the engine.......


Find your local GM dealer that used to service Saturns or absorbed the local dealership tech into their ranks. When you find an experienced former Saturn tech he can prob tell you w 90% certainty in 90 sec or less what the issue is and the cost range to fix it, or if it's worth fixing. Those GM techs not familiar w Saturns will be guessing. Experienced mechanics will prob guess right.....

any updates?