Hey All:


I have a 93 Saturn SL, DOHC 1.9L Manual Tranny. I bought the car used nearly 2 years ago and never had a bit of trouble until this one! Apparently there was a problem with the blower motor relay and the idiot who owned it prior to me cut the wires and inserted a toggle switch to the fan. Never got around to repairing it (wished I had now) and about a month ago, I forgot to shut it off for the whole day.


I jumped and started the car with no problems. Then I did it againabout two weeks ago! After jumping and starting the car (no problems) I started having an ignition problem, which has now become a no-crank at all issue. When I turn the key to the on position, the dash lights up with all the normal lights and I can hear the fuel pumpengage (all normal). However, when I turn the key to start... nothing, it doesn't even try to crank and makes no noise at all. When the problem was still intermitent, it would not start for several tries while the engine was cold, never when it was warmed up. I just purchased a new battery after the parts store told me the old one had a bad cell. I checked all of the fuses and the battery cables; all were fine. I pulled the starter and had it tested... no problems. I by-passed the neutral safety with a jumper wire, still no crank. The parts store sold me a starter motor relay, but I do not know where to find the old relay to test it.


Can anyone tell me where the relay is located and/or suggest some other alternatives? I have some limited knowledge of cars, but I am far from being a mechanic! I'm desperate here asthis is my sole souce of transportation to and from work!

With your limited abilities you still have to do the basics, ifsome help is nearby. Since the battery was replaced and the cables were checked for corrosion at the posts have you checked the other end? The positive cable connects to the starter relay, directly attached to the starter! It will be the smaller of two round objects most likely behind the engine on the firewall side. There will be a large wire attached to one relay terminal and a smaller wire attached to the other relay terminal. The smaller wire is coming from the ignition switch; when the ignition key is turned to the START position, current goes from the ignition switch through the small wire to the relay terminal. That 12v current allows the relay to operate the starter motor. The large wire supplies the same 12v but carries the large current for the starter directly from the battery. Both terminals must be checked for corrosion and loose connections. A very quick way to test if the starter is worn out (is this the original starter?) would be to take a screwdriver and place the shaft across the two relay terminals. Be prepared to be startled! There will be a momentary arc as one side of the relay will supply 12v to enable the relay that in turn engages the starter motor. Be sure the car is parked with the E-brake engaged and not in gear! If the starter engages then the starter most likely is working. If the starter just makes a loud click or clicking sound then the starter is worn and needs replacement.

+1

Ducky is right on -- sounds like solenoid (starter motor relay) issue. Unfortunately, these are inside the starter on S-Cars.

Loose corroded connections at the starter are not uncommon (especially since it sounds like you pulled it for a bench test).

Though the progression of events and failure when warm usually indicate a solenoid issue.

I believe you can disassemble the starter and replace the solenoid if you so desire--but 14 yrs out of a starter is pretty good -- may want to just replace the starter.

As for toggle switch -- this is controlling the aux cooling fan by the radiator. Some folks did this with early model S cars b/c they got nervous when the dash needle on the temp gauge got to 3/4 tick before the fan kicked in. The above behavior is normal for an S car.

However, if your ECTS (Engine coolant temp sensor) was bad, it would tell the PCM that the engine coolant was at -40 all the time--so it would never trigger the aux fan to engage. The result -- overheating.

Given the age and the fan tweak, you'll want to replace the ECTS and connector with the brass-tipped design (connector is Saturn only). If the original, it almost certainly has failed. They all did.


Edited by: derf

Perhaps I am not understanding you guys or you didn't notice that I had already had the starter tested. I had a buddy pull the starter and we took it to AutoZone, much to my relief the $175 part tested okay. I watched them test it and saw for myself that the bendix jumped out and spun.When my buddyre-installed it, he tightened the positive terminal (it was a little loose) on the starter and cleaned both the terminal and the cable. Now you mention a relay at the starter, do I understand it is not a PART of the starter or is it seperate (old Ford guy here... I hate starter relays)? Could this be the problem? I wrestled with this problem in my sleep last night and am also wondering if the fact that my dash lights, fuel pump engagement &ect, come on when the key is in the "on" position fully indicates that the ignition switch is okay, OR is there still a possibility that it might be bad? Is there a way to check it and eliminate it from the list? Guys I REALLY appreciate the help... love my Saturn except at this moment!

Ok, here's more info to overload you with; the small wire going to one of the starter relay terminal is THE signal/control wire that comes from the ignition switch when you turn the key to START. I wrote this before without the bold wording to help you home in on this. Only when the ignition key is turned to START will there be 12v at the little wire on the starter relay. Leaving the key in the ON/RUN position has NOTHING to do with the starting circuit or starting sequence. The ON/RUN position allows/arms the electronic fuel injection system and is standing by for the engine to physically turn over. If you can use a multimeter then you can test the 12v start signal at the relay terminal. One person measures for the presence of 12v at exactly the moment the ignition key is turned to the START position. To put it another way and a little safer, remove the small wire that goes to the starter relay. Now clamp the positive lead of the meter to this loose wire and the other meter lead to frame ground. Have someone turn the ignition key to START; there should be 12v displayed immediately and releasing the key to the ON/RUN position will read zero voltage. Repeating this several times is the same as a hard starting problem except that instead of listening for the starter you'll be observing the meter display 12v each time the key is turned to START. If at any time there isn't any 12v displayed then there may be a failing ignition switch. The signs of a failing ignition switch is intermittent 12 volts displayed, one moment its there and the next key turn its not. If this is the case then replace the ignition switch. The only other switch inline with the ignition switch is the clutch neutral safety switch that you bypassed. Are you sure the safety switch is bypassed and not the cause of the problem?

Okay, no voltage at the switch side of the starter and 12.5V at the position side of the starter. Also, no voltage or continuity from or through the feed wires into the neutral saftey. The voltage to both comes from the ignition switch right? If so, all I have to determine is if there is power TO the ignition switch and PRESTO, I'm one trip to AutoZone and two screws away from starting my car?

It would seem so....No juice = no start.

Ducky -- very nicely explained :)

Derf

That appears to be the problem, yes. Trace the source back to the ignition switch START terminal; this would be the terminal that would first indicate 0 volts but when the key is turned to START this terminal would immediately indicate 12v. In your caseit should be there but may not. If not try several attempts to jiggle the ignition switch to observe 12v at this terminal.You'll have to probe where the 12v is missing, either the switch is faulty or a wire is off/loose/broken somewhere. It may even be a fuse. 12v must enter the switch and supplied to the START terminal when in the START position. If you still can't read 12v at the terminal that goes to the starter relay then it can be assumed that the ignition switch is faulty.

The saga continues! I finally got the cash together to buy the $135.90 switch and the $@!#@ car STILL does not try to crank. I still have no voltage at the neutral safety and no exciter voltage at the starter (obviously). The battery is new, the ignition switch is new, the starter (yes I pulled it out AGAIN and took it to a different parts store) tests good. Battery cables have been pulled off and thoroughly tested + cleaned. I can think of no reason why this thing won't even try to crank short of a broken wire.


Now I REALLY need help. I have a good digital multimeter, but do not know where to start to look for the problem and my wife is furious... gonna be surfing the couch until I get this fixed!

I noticed that you didn't say whether or not you replaced the starter relay...