LW300 Problems?
 

Hi,
I have a saturn lw300 wagon with a 24v 3.0 engine it has me puzzled! My wife started complaining it was losing power then finally it stopped running weeks later it would turn over and sputter and every now and then rev up and shut off. I checked the CPS it ohmed out at 850 and fuel to the rail is 45psi i changed the plugs which were fairly black and managed to get it to idle roughly but when you hit the pedal it barely moves the idle speed 1500 rpm max. I put the code reader on and was shocked to see 40 codes present some saying the ecm is faulty some about a wastegate some about lean in banks 1 and 2 i mean all over the board and not would clear out tried twice. This is leading me to think the ecm is the problem anyone with any input or similar problems?

Post the codes if you don't have them get them.

I will pull them back up but its a long list!

Have you checked for a clogged catalytic converter?

It seems to have good pressure coming out of the tailpipes i thought that was a possible problem! here are all the codes in the order they came out = p0502 p0604 p0606 p0716 p0717 p0742 p0751 p0752 p0756 p0757 u2104 u2105 u2107 p1780 p1815 p1816 p1817 p1818 p1847 p1860 p1887 p1795 u2103 u2107 p1516 p1780 p1632 p0503 p0562 p0563 p0601 p0602 p0603 p0727 p0741 p1621 p1791 p1810 p1817 p1842 p1843 p1845 p1516 p1780

You may want to try another code reader and see if you come up with something different. See what O'reallyAdvanceNapaZone comes up with. Not sure what "u" codes are.

http://www.engine-light-help.com/sat...ine-light.html

http://engine-codes.com/make/saturn

The one i have is a actron unit which works well however it does not show a lw300 just 4cyl versions i had to jump to a L series but still show vin code R 3.0 that may be some of the issue or the ecm is whacky showing everything but something is really wrong when it puts up 40+ codes!

My Service Data for a 2002 LW300 wagon indicates that it needs a Tech2 scan tool to deal with the on board diagnostics.
The code list starts with P0030 and goes up to P1887 with U codes identified as;
UXXXX as communication malfunctions, see body control module sections.
The written data contains volumes of information an would make a large novel if it was fiction.
It would take me hours to go through this list with an explanation for each one but apparently I have the data to do so.
I am not going to take the time to do so for grins. But if there is a need for it because it can not be found by purchasing a manual, let me know and I will.

I lied, for grins I did look up this much.

it is a good recommendation for;
1. buying a scan tool

and

2. Buying a service document



so here goes.



p0502 – OSS Circuit Low input
p0503 – OSS Circuit intermittent.

p0562 – System Voltage low
p0563 – System Voltage high

p0601 – ECM Memory
p0602 – ECM Not programed
p0603 – ECM Memory RAM
p0604 – TCM Memory RAM
p0606 – ECM Internal performance

p0716 – Input Speed Sensor intermittent
p0717 – Input Speed Sensor Low Input
p0727 – Engine Speed Circuit No Signal
p0741 –TCC System Stuck Off
p0742 – TCC System Stuck On
p0751 - 1-2 Shift Solenoid Stuck off
p0752 – 1-2 Shift Solenoid stuck on
p0756 - 2-3 Shift Solenoid Stuck off
p0757 – 2-3 Shift Solenoid Stuck on.

p1516 – Command vs Actual throttle position error

p1621 – TCM Memory Performance
p1632 – Theft Deterrent system fuel disabled

p1780 – Torque Reduction Signal
p1791 – Throttle/Pedal position Signal
p1795 – Throttle Body Position Signal

p1810 – TFP Valve Position Switch Circuit.
p1815 – TFP Valve Position Switch Start in Wrong Range
p1816 –TFP Valve Position Switch Start/ neutral with drive ratio
p1817 –TFP Valve position Switch Reverse with drive ratio
p1818 – TFP Valve Position Switch –W/O Drive ratio
p1842 -1/2 shift solenoid circuit with low voltage
p1843 – 1/2 Shift Solenoid circuit with High Voltage
p1845 – 2/3 Shift Solenoid circit with Low Voltage
p1847 – 2/3 Shift Solenoid circuit with High Voltage
p1860 - TCC PWM Solenoid Circit
p1887 – There was none, either you or I copied it wrong

u2103
u2104
u2105
u2107



My best guess at the moment?

Have a volt meter ready to read the battery voltage and some one to read it while some one else tries to start the car.

I am gonna guess the alternator might have gone out and the regulator failed thus giving some seriously Wacko voltage readings and if while the engine is running you get wacko readings I think considering changing he alternator might be a good idea.

But? then again it might not.
Normal with the engine running you would expect to get a stable 14.6 or so volts read at the battery.

I'm going to bed.

I was looking yesterday a bit for another scan tool most common is the actron which i have and it did give me the break down of everycode that was listed. I will look into the Tech2 and see if i can find one also check running voltage at the battery. i know all these caodes are either set for a main reason or the scanner is being funny because it does not read that model correctly.
Thanks for the input!

I as of yet have not been able to cost justify purchasing a scan tool, but at the price they are at the present it is not much of a stretch to say a purchase would not be in order. I would want something that can read my 2007 car along with my 95 and 94 even though both of those I can diddle with the key and count codes with a flashing check engine light. They are limited in scope even if they are available and have proven useful.
It should also have the capacity to deal with anything up to this year that I might foreseeable by in the future over the next couple of years.
But Harbor Freight sells a perfectly functional Digital Voltmeter for $2.00 on sale and I keep them all over the place because they are cheap and useful.
It costs more to keep good batteries in them then it did to buy them in the first place and they will adequately make most measurements that can be done on your car.

Well checked the voltage at the battery tonight with the car idling it was 14.9 so that means the alt. is putting out. It really acts like a clogged converter but when i put my hand over the tailpipe it has a good amount of pressure which makes be believe thats not a problem plus i dont know if that would cause major codes if it was clogged!

I have owned 2 cars that ended up plagued with clogged converters. One was a car purchased new in 1978 and as converter technology was relatively new at that point in time and many manufactures used the flat converter developed by GM there were not many types nor applications around. Smog certification being what they were some model cars depending on what engine and carburetor they had will still being made that did not automatically require one. That car suffered from excessive overheating aggravated by the length of the trip, very poopy performance and blown exhaust pipe gaskets. It took the dealer well over a year to figure out what the problem was and then it was a factory recall that solved it.
The 2nd car was actually my 94 Saturn. They symptom was running hot on very long trips and a noise when starting that sounded like throwing pea gravel on a metal heat shield that can be seen around the catalytic converter. In this case there was no noticeable change in performance. Running hot was only observable by looking at the heat gauge and as can be seen here on the forums, the accuracy of the heat gauge was also a factor of the sensor located in the cylinder head thus some question of how accurate the gauge was always was open for judgement.
That essentially was discovered a few years back when I went through it solving a number of problems accumulated through time and had the Catalytic Converter cut out and replaced with a universal high flow catalytic converter that is popular here locally as a generic cat replacement item. I have one on another car too. That solved the rattly noise and no longer did it appear to run hot on a long trip running hard. Neither car exhibited any problem doing grocery store runs. You had to be out on the open road trying to make time before the running hot indications showed up.
As to the codes? Neither car ever showed a check engine light in normal operation unless it was also very hot so the codes were never checked.
Dunno, times and computers change.
The 78 had a pretty dumb computer in it and the 94 compared to today's computer engine and body management systems was not that much smarter.

Well made some progress i think tonight got another scan tool that did read the lw correctly i erased all the codes and rechecked it without starting it P1516 code stayed then i started it and two other showed up P1780 and U2107 the scanner stated the most common fix was the PCM then thottle body then mass airflow sensor. I did tap on the MAF the other day to see if any change in idle happened and one time the idle did stumble but only one so that may have been a fluke.
Where Is the Pcm on this car bolted to the back valve cover? and is it also the ECM or they different modules?

In my own mind I equate the two as being the same thing. I look up the definition and PCM becomes powertrain control module and I think it dates back to early computer controlled vehicles. Those from the early 80's were generally simpler and were usually throttle body types. They were both simpler and required no changes in intake manifold technology and were more or less an electronic carburetor for all practical purposes and it seems to me that the engine control computer was tagged by that name which is where I remember it from.
Of course it common that different manufacturers come up with some cutesy name that their advertising department can use to differentiate their car from some one else's.
The first throttle body car I owned was a 1980 Dodge Aries available with a Mitsubishi 2.6 or Chryslers 2.2. Mine was the 2.2. Ignition timing was controlled by the PCM which had a vacuum advance canister hooked to a potentiometer inside the PCM that controlled the engine. Of course that was an analog to digital conversion, another technical function in the jargon applied to the acronym PCM
I really don't know whether the Acronym ECM is a universal way of defining the computer that controls the engine or not. Or just a GM name applied to it.
Most of my fuel injection experience is with a Chrysler application over the years and a Camero and my Saturn. My other cars are mostly AMC and they went to Electronic Feed Back Carburetors some where in the late 70's and other than the fuel injection used on the Jeep 4.0L engine that replaced the GM 2.8 V6 in the Cherokee which was a French design and the replaced by a MOPAR unit used nothing but Electronic Feedback Carter BBD carburetors and an extremely simple computer which I believe was also referred to as a PCM.
All that is in part a reason why I stay away from using acronyms. For the most part people have no clue what they mean with out looking them up. They have a tendency to change meaning between automotive manufacturers and I really do not know what a universal term is and I guess I really don't care. I try to define a piece functionally if I do not know the name and let it be at that.
I am not sure that my Saturn uses a Mass Air Flow sensor. I have not had a problem that required me to figure it out. My 87 Olds though did and as it was a Company Car that required it to be maintained under fleet guide lines it went to oil change facilities that gave receipts. And every time the supposed mechanic removed the air filter to show me that it needed a new one whether it did or not they damaged the Mass Air Flow sensor and back to the dealer it went to get a replacement. It usually took awhile for it to take place though so it was never instantaneous and the only thing I remember it doing was to turn on the check engine light. I do not remember a drive-ability problem. I can see where a mass air flow sensor can cause problems if it is going to though. That is good technology and very adaptable to modifications. As it measures air flow usage and with in certain parameters can compensate for engine modifications.
A Speed Density design does not use a mass air flow sensor. It is assumed that at a given rpm there will be a given amount of air used and the calculations are then based on RPM vs various sensor positions. A simpler system but as long as modifications are kept with in a window, works with them. Other wise you crutch the design by changing to injectors with a higher flow rate or insert an offset into something like a MMAP sensor so it's signal to the ECM or PCM reflects different operating conditions thus changing how things are controlled.
I don't have documentation that covers your car as to where the electronic parts are located. Sorry can not help as to where it is.

As to code definitions, those I apparently do have. I can copy those out on hard copy. To pass them on requires me to re-scan them as a jpg and attach to an e-mail or as a picture on a forum post or send them out as part of a snail mail deal.
If that is needed lemme know and I will try.

Went to the junk yard today and found two ecm's with different numbers from what i have so i bought them to try out i figured they would not work but wanted to try something. plugged them in and found both had stored codes cleared them and tried to start the car with no luck but no codes reset plugged the old ecm back in and it has the codes in it even after clearing so that kinda tells me that is the problem. I guess finding a used one with the same numbers is like finding a needle in a haystack so what are the options are reman. units preprogrammed any good? If i buy a new gm unit can the program it without the car being there?

I don't know so can't answer that. I have never been backed that far into a corner. I am just some what aware that pretty much many of the newer Saturn parts are getting harder to get locally. I have heard some pretty Bazaar stories on availability.

Many models require programming to the unit to the vehicle VIN & mileage and certain applications require additional information before the car will start and run. I believe thats the case with all SATURNS.............................

I heard and read a few guys that had good results with reman'd cardone units i may give that a shot and also call the dealer and get some insight.

Well i ended up finding a company to either repair or reman. my Ecm i sent it to them and it was unrepairable so they built and programmed another unit and said i may ned to program the passlock. I did the install and it will not start i tried the relearn process for the passlock but its not working i know that the problem if i spray some starting fluid in the intake it fires plus i hear the fuel pump so the injectors are not spraying. Anyone had relearn problems and can someone tell me the exact process to do the relearn so i can see if its me doing it wrong?

As far as I know at the moment the car involved is a 2002 LW300 Saturn Wagon. Some one may know your answer and be able to write it out for you.
I can look in my service data to see what it says.
But, hearing the fuel pump run and spraying starting fluid into the intake does not intake a solution that points at anything yet other than seeming to say that IF gasoline would get into the engine it probably would run.
I have found on working on the complexity of the modern engine that a fuel pressure gauge was almost essential. A difference then working on a carbureted car. Which I have done a lot and never once needed one.
Also some voltage measuring tool that can determine that there is a signal voltage at the injector that is telling it to pulse fluid.
With this post the assumption seems to be that Fluid is there and the injectors are not working.
And I have no clue how true that is.
Also what ever this passlock problem is I do not know.
However it is something that I may have enough information on to find out what it is, what it affects and how to deal with it.
I have a feeling knowing what codes you are dealing with at the moment too might be important.
But at O-dark-30 in the AM and I am typing because I can not sleep, I am going back to bed. I have a doctors appointment at 8:00 and some chores to do. And when I can during the day I will get my service software fires up and see what it says and type something back at you in detail, or as much as I can anyway.
Until then.
Have the best day you can.

I gotta agree with UnclJohn -- slap a fuel pressure meter on the rail, and check for proper pressure. Pumps can run, and still pump nothing ...

The pump has never had a problem maintaining 43psi at the rail that was the first thing i checked from day one and again with the new Ecm. When i get in and turn the key over all the lights flash and the security light is flashing away and it will not shift out of park plus power options shut down all of which is controlled by the passlock system.

O.K., I finally got back to this and as long as no one else has this will have to do.
Programming Engine Control Module
After replacing ECM or if program needs to be updated, refer to latest techline information on ECM reprogramming. After Reprogramming, perform Programming Theft Deterrent System Components.
Note:
Passlock (R) learn procedure must be performed when Passlock (R) sensor, BCM or ECM are replaced. If only Passlock (R) sensor, BCM or ECM are eplaced. Inly Passlock (R)sensor was replaced, auto learn method may be used. BCM or ECM Replacement requires Saturn Service Stall method.
Saturn Service Stall method require use of Tech 2 Scan tool
Auto learn method
Note if ignition is turned off before Security indicator light changes state, relearn procedure must be restarted.

1) Check BCM and ECM for existing DTC's. If DTC's exist, repair as necessary and go to next step. If no DTC's exist go to next step.
2) Turn ignition switch to RUN position. Momentarily turn ignition swich to start position. Do not start vehicle. Wait 10 minutes. When Security indicator light changes from flashing to off or from on to off, turn ignition switch to off, or from on to off, turn ignition switch to off position. Perform this process 3 times. After the third time, vehicle should start on next ignition cycle.

Service Stall method.
 

Saturn Service Stall Method
Note, if ignition is turned of before security indicator light changes state, relearn procedure must be restarted.
1) (paraphrased) if DTC's exist fix them. End of Paraphrased.

2.
Install scan tool. Turn ignition switch to Run position. Using scan tool, select passlock (R)relearn procedure. Wait 10 min. When security indicator light changes from flashing to off,or from on to off, turn ignition switch to off position.
Vehicle should start on next ignition cycle.

Now this is all the information I have on this as stated anyway. I hope that it is of some value to some one some where because after reading it a few times and then typing it out it just barely makes any sense to me.

Good Luck.

Of course some of this assumes that there is service data available some where. A problem when the company has gone out ob business and the now replacement dealer rather than fixing the Saturn wants to sell you a Yugo or what ever it is that they sell instead with out bothering to mention that by the end of the week, their pet car will be gone.

sounds like unless you have access to a GM Tech II scanner you'll need a visit to a GM dealership

Yes sounds that way i tried the process without the tech2 3 times with no luck looks like i have to give the dealer $105!