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CAI mpg increase.
Was kinda wondering what kind of mpg people are getting on the 1.8's. A while back I made my own CAI by adding a 3" cone filter on the elbow cominig off the MAF. When I changed to that I picked up about 2 mpg. Then just to mess around I put a 4 inch Greddy filter (i know thats way to big) I lost a crap load of low end power which was expected, but I filled up on 89 octane, with that combo my mpg went up to 4 mpg to around 32mpg. Im going to change back to a 3" cause 4 is way to big. But i must say as far as mpg the car loves the 4".
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2mpg from a cone filter swap? Your stock filter must have been plugged solid.
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"Then just to mess around I put a 4 inch Greddy filter (i know thats way to big) "
Just out of curiosity, how is it that you KNOW it is way too big. It is an air intake. There is no rpm tuning per say that can be done due to Street driving variables. Most intakes on newer cars are designed to induce cool outside air at the throttle body one way or another. Most factory systems of the past never bothered with it, plumbing restrictions and cost effectivity were not worth the design effort. Most new cars along with meeting cool air requirements also do consider design efforts to get engines to run quieter so you do not get air sucking sounds, Most air intake systems that do actually give dyno proven hp power and effeciency increases, that is as applied to a given engine under given conditions not advertised as UP TO, take into account restrictions of the air flow, filter size and expected operating RPMS under drivng conditions. For a small aprx. 2 liter engine running at WOT the odds are that air flow requirement is about the same as a vintage in line I6 engine running a carburator. The same make and model of the same car with performance oriented V8 probably had the need for 4 x's the air flow and at it's best never had as good of a low restriction factory intake system that had better and cooler air management. AS far as filter size, the objective of a filter is to stop dirt from getting into the engine. Some forms of racing had air filters that looked like spare tires sitting on the hood. Versions of todays off road truck series have huge filters systems running piping through to the engine mounted in the bed of the truck. So how is it on a slightly smaller than 2 liter street driven saturn is an air filter declared too big? I can gain or loose more than two miles a gallon of gasoline just the way I drive my Saturn and on my Town and Country I can and have changed fuel mileage from 11mpg to 24 mpg just by driving differences. I dunno, I have built more than a few engines and if I am going to build one on a budget and I have, the biggest bang for a buck considered street driving and smog compliance which I have to deal with, Camshafts selection is number 1 with fuel management, carburator or F.I. with for me anyways, carburetor gives more for less money then F.I. but with enough money you can not beat F.I., Intake manifold next, with dual exahust next or a huge big single on a small in line engine. But headers and air intake plumbing last on my effectivity per dollar expenditures. If you are running an automatic a mild lock up torque converter with matching transmission is a good bet, about 2200 rpm and if a standard then a 5 speed. But you need matching gear ratio's in the transmission. Most of those things require some work to get them installed, but the pay back is measurable performance. Donno, but that is my experiance for what it is worth. But, as Stroker McGurk: http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/h...artoon_series/ used to say; You can't beat cubic money! |
Originally Posted by sw2cam
(Post 28451)
2mpg from a cone filter swap? Your stock filter must have been plugged solid.
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Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 28454)
"Then just to mess around I put a 4 inch Greddy filter (i know thats way to big) "
Just out of curiosity, how is it that you KNOW it is way too big. It is an air intake. There is no rpm tuning per say that can be done due to Street driving variables. Most intakes on newer cars are designed to induce cool outside air at the throttle body one way or another. Most factory systems of the past never bothered with it, plumbing restrictions and cost effectivity were not worth the design effort. Most new cars along with meeting cool air requirements also do consider design efforts to get engines to run quieter so you do not get air sucking sounds, Most air intake systems that do actually give dyno proven hp power and effeciency increases, that is as applied to a given engine under given conditions not advertised as UP TO, take into account restrictions of the air flow, filter size and expected operating RPMS under drivng conditions. For a small aprx. 2 liter engine running at WOT the odds are that air flow requirement is about the same as a vintage in line I6 engine running a carburator. The same make and model of the same car with performance oriented V8 probably had the need for 4 x's the air flow and at it's best never had as good of a low restriction factory intake system that had better and cooler air management. AS far as filter size, the objective of a filter is to stop dirt from getting into the engine. Some forms of racing had air filters that looked like spare tires sitting on the hood. Versions of todays off road truck series have huge filters systems running piping through to the engine mounted in the bed of the truck. So how is it on a slightly smaller than 2 liter street driven saturn is an air filter declared too big? I can gain or loose more than two miles a gallon of gasoline just the way I drive my Saturn and on my Town and Country I can and have changed fuel mileage from 11mpg to 24 mpg just by driving differences. I dunno, I have built more than a few engines and if I am going to build one on a budget and I have, the biggest bang for a buck considered street driving and smog compliance which I have to deal with, Camshafts selection is number 1 with fuel management, carburator or F.I. with for me anyways, carburetor gives more for less money then F.I. but with enough money you can not beat F.I., Intake manifold next, with dual exahust next or a huge big single on a small in line engine. But headers and air intake plumbing last on my effectivity per dollar expenditures. If you are running an automatic a mild lock up torque converter with matching transmission is a good bet, about 2200 rpm and if a standard then a 5 speed. But you need matching gear ratio's in the transmission. Most of those things require some work to get them installed, but the pay back is measurable performance. Donno, but that is my experiance for what it is worth. But, as Stroker McGurk: http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/h...artoon_series/ used to say; You can't beat cubic money! |
Quote
With me being around and also building engines I understand what your saying. But you kinda took it way over the top. I was simply asking what mpg other people were getting. Unquote Sorry, no offense intended, way over the top? Not really, just a skeptic. I have yet to see a generic aftermarket performance enhancing device universally advertised as “Up To” some claim or another actually be much benefit in normal driving circumstances making it worth the money spent to buy and install what ever it is. Frankly with little differences in application. In general any benefit immediately available was by in large traceable to something was wrong in the first place and installing what ever it was corrected the basic problem and the installation either looked way too kool or made go fast noises or some combination of both thus the improvement was claimed to be a direct result of the “new” thingy rather than the repair of what is broken. Most, but not all, but most performance enhancing parts address the operating limits of an engine and are very rarely visible until that limit is reached. On a street driven car, those limits are rarely reached. In a pure racing environment they are reached and exceeded routinely in a well defined and generally measured manner. I like most back yard builders depend on the seat of the pants dyno, a subjective manner of determining an improvement based in part on the predetermined expectation. Roller Rockers on a push rod engine have a measurable expectation of results based on cam shaft profile and rpm. And when pushed to that level work. Are expensive to install and largely unless actually driven under those conditions cause premature valve train failure due to lifter problems, cam shaft wear, excessive weight on the valve train and the pressures needed due to extra weight of the components caused by increased valve spring tension. All of which does nothing for normal driving and probably has a negative impact because now mores law has taken over, more cam does not mean better drivability, so drivability can go down the toilet. Not to mention if the rest of the engine is not modified to take advantage of more and better valve lift at extreme rpm, the engine is rpm limited by other area’s and will rarely run in the range of benefit one can get from the change over. Which pretty much says, a well built Flat Tappet V8 with an aggressive but streatable cam shaft profile, the right intake system and exhaust and an ignitions system that will deliver spark at the rpm’s the engine can run at can and will out perform the engine with roller rockers, but little else to back them up with. But the are Kool and Expensive. All of the above is both arguable and subject to opinion. My point is one of questionable results based on installing a round tube with a cone filter on a small displacement engine that when installed eliminates the factory designed fresh air input to the engine and replaces it with hot under hood air. A known way to decrease the efficiency of an engine. The assumption is that replacing the factory designed intake system provides you with something more efficient. I don’t see the truth in that. My Saturn is bone stock. I would like another 15 hp for it. I do not see 15 hp in bolt on additions to the cosmetic appearance of the engine nor do I see replacing an air cleaner that is arguably large enough to not cause a restriction to the air flow that the engine can run at on the street in normal driving and does supply fresh outside air, a known performance improving method with one the supplies hot under hood air. As to air need, flow or usage. That is dictated by the size of the motor and the rpm it runs at. An engine is an air pump. It can by itself pump X amount of air at a given rpm. The limitation is not the size of the are filter, but the restrictions with in the air filter system. And if they are large enough, they do not factor in to the equations. Engine can not have too much air by changing the filter to bigger. Engines are regularly supercharged or turb-blown which either method increases the air available to the engine and to utilize the increased air other modifications have to be made to it to gain a maximum benefit. Most of my building has been small I6 or I4 engines and with those the limits defined by the factory designed intake and exhaust have rarely made any difference in the measurable performance or that sensed by the seat of the pants unless there has been first a measurable problem with how the engine ran or a serious and observable restriction in either the intake air path or the exhaust. At street driven performance levels. Chassis Dyno work or Drag strip measurable time differences on small displacement engine modifications to an engine that was actually in good shape in the first place has been insignificant on intake and exhaust changes including hi-flow catalytic converters and larger exhaust. Are there a place in the automotive world for these changes? Yes! But generally under extreme conditions and/or some seriously expensive modifications that also take into account something more than an isolated case such as drag strip times. I have for example, achieved a measurable increase in both performance and economy by replacing a 178cfm 2 bbl carburetor with a fuel injection system capable of flowing the equivalent amount of air of upwards of 500 cfm. The engine was under carbureted. It dropped dead at 3800 rpm. With the installation of the Port Injection system it now ran to end of cam shaft limits, about 5500 rpms. But at what cost? About $3300.00 for the F.I. system. Something I could have done with a 4bbl carb at about $300.00 worth of parts. But did not. And on top of that, the F.I. program operation required me to have a 2200 rpm stall torqueconverter to actually work correctly. An animal of a whole different caliber. So over the top? Maybe, but a skeptic yes. My Saturn as stated is a 94, bone stock in good shape. I like it, it is quick. The best feature is the programmable automatic transmission with a sport and economy setting which controls what gear it is in and when. I have scared the hell out of new mustangs with it. In sport mode. Where does it fall on it’s face? Climbing 7% grades at freeway speeds of 75mph on cruis-control. It does not have the power to maintain speed under those conditions. Fuel mileage, regularly 33mpg on the open road. Low 20’s somewhere in mixed city traffic. Depending on how I drive it. My only other experience was a friends 99 5 speed car regularly got 45mpg + making the same trip I get 33 on. Don’t know why. I guess I did not think my 33mpg was out of line with reality. I just personally question the advantage of a metal tube that looks nice. If it works for you, than I am wrong. And admit it. I am a skeptic. But a 2mpg increase if fuel economy can be achieved by changing driving habits too. These things and cat back exhaust systems some how do not ring well with my way of thinking. So sorry, no offence intended nor meant. If I question the expenditure, that is o.k., I can, so can you. You ought to see some of mine. |
Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 28473)
Quote
With me being around and also building engines I understand what your saying. But you kinda took it way over the top. I was simply asking what mpg other people were getting. Unquote Sorry, no offense intended, way over the top? Not really, just a skeptic. I have yet to see a generic aftermarket performance enhancing device universally advertised as “Up To” some claim or another actually be much benefit in normal driving circumstances making it worth the money spent to buy and install what ever it is. Frankly with little differences in application. In general any benefit immediately available was by in large traceable to something was wrong in the first place and installing what ever it was corrected the basic problem and the installation either looked way too kool or made go fast noises or some combination of both thus the improvement was claimed to be a direct result of the “new” thingy rather than the repair of what is broken. Most, but not all, but most performance enhancing parts address the operating limits of an engine and are very rarely visible until that limit is reached. On a street driven car, those limits are rarely reached. In a pure racing environment they are reached and exceeded routinely in a well defined and generally measured manner. I like most back yard builders depend on the seat of the pants dyno, a subjective manner of determining an improvement based in part on the predetermined expectation. Roller Rockers on a push rod engine have a measurable expectation of results based on cam shaft profile and rpm. And when pushed to that level work. Are expensive to install and largely unless actually driven under those conditions cause premature valve train failure due to lifter problems, cam shaft wear, excessive weight on the valve train and the pressures needed due to extra weight of the components caused by increased valve spring tension. All of which does nothing for normal driving and probably has a negative impact because now mores law has taken over, more cam does not mean better drivability, so drivability can go down the toilet. Not to mention if the rest of the engine is not modified to take advantage of more and better valve lift at extreme rpm, the engine is rpm limited by other area’s and will rarely run in the range of benefit one can get from the change over. Which pretty much says, a well built Flat Tappet V8 with an aggressive but streatable cam shaft profile, the right intake system and exhaust and an ignitions system that will deliver spark at the rpm’s the engine can run at can and will out perform the engine with roller rockers, but little else to back them up with. But the are Kool and Expensive. All of the above is both arguable and subject to opinion. My point is one of questionable results based on installing a round tube with a cone filter on a small displacement engine that when installed eliminates the factory designed fresh air input to the engine and replaces it with hot under hood air. A known way to decrease the efficiency of an engine. The assumption is that replacing the factory designed intake system provides you with something more efficient. I don’t see the truth in that. My Saturn is bone stock. I would like another 15 hp for it. I do not see 15 hp in bolt on additions to the cosmetic appearance of the engine nor do I see replacing an air cleaner that is arguably large enough to not cause a restriction to the air flow that the engine can run at on the street in normal driving and does supply fresh outside air, a known performance improving method with one the supplies hot under hood air. As to air need, flow or usage. That is dictated by the size of the motor and the rpm it runs at. An engine is an air pump. It can by itself pump X amount of air at a given rpm. The limitation is not the size of the are filter, but the restrictions with in the air filter system. And if they are large enough, they do not factor in to the equations. Engine can not have too much air by changing the filter to bigger. Engines are regularly supercharged or turb-blown which either method increases the air available to the engine and to utilize the increased air other modifications have to be made to it to gain a maximum benefit. Most of my building has been small I6 or I4 engines and with those the limits defined by the factory designed intake and exhaust have rarely made any difference in the measurable performance or that sensed by the seat of the pants unless there has been first a measurable problem with how the engine ran or a serious and observable restriction in either the intake air path or the exhaust. At street driven performance levels. Chassis Dyno work or Drag strip measurable time differences on small displacement engine modifications to an engine that was actually in good shape in the first place has been insignificant on intake and exhaust changes including hi-flow catalytic converters and larger exhaust. Are there a place in the automotive world for these changes? Yes! But generally under extreme conditions and/or some seriously expensive modifications that also take into account something more than an isolated case such as drag strip times. I have for example, achieved a measurable increase in both performance and economy by replacing a 178cfm 2 bbl carburetor with a fuel injection system capable of flowing the equivalent amount of air of upwards of 500 cfm. The engine was under carbureted. It dropped dead at 3800 rpm. With the installation of the Port Injection system it now ran to end of cam shaft limits, about 5500 rpms. But at what cost? About $3300.00 for the F.I. system. Something I could have done with a 4bbl carb at about $300.00 worth of parts. But did not. And on top of that, the F.I. program operation required me to have a 2200 rpm stall torqueconverter to actually work correctly. An animal of a whole different caliber. So over the top? Maybe, but a skeptic yes. My Saturn as stated is a 94, bone stock in good shape. I like it, it is quick. The best feature is the programmable automatic transmission with a sport and economy setting which controls what gear it is in and when. I have scared the hell out of new mustangs with it. In sport mode. Where does it fall on it’s face? Climbing 7% grades at freeway speeds of 75mph on cruis-control. It does not have the power to maintain speed under those conditions. Fuel mileage, regularly 33mpg on the open road. Low 20’s somewhere in mixed city traffic. Depending on how I drive it. My only other experience was a friends 99 5 speed car regularly got 45mpg + making the same trip I get 33 on. Don’t know why. I guess I did not think my 33mpg was out of line with reality. I just personally question the advantage of a metal tube that looks nice. If it works for you, than I am wrong. And admit it. I am a skeptic. But a 2mpg increase if fuel economy can be achieved by changing driving habits too. These things and cat back exhaust systems some how do not ring well with my way of thinking. So sorry, no offence intended nor meant. If I question the expenditure, that is o.k., I can, so can you. You ought to see some of mine. |
Originally Posted by 08astraxr
(Post 28475)
I agree with everything you said. Your a very inteligent person. I was skeptical myself. But I drove 5 tanks with one filter and 5 with the other and that's what it averaged out to, those were the numbers that came up. I enjoy your knowledge about cars. I almost wanna write more to see what you respond with.
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Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 28473)
Quote
With me being around and also building engines I understand what your saying. But you kinda took it way over the top. I was simply asking what mpg other people were getting. Unquote Sorry, no offense intended, way over the top? Not really, just a skeptic. I have yet to see a generic aftermarket performance enhancing device universally advertised as “Up To” some claim or another actually be much benefit in normal driving circumstances making it worth the money spent to buy and install what ever it is. Frankly with little differences in application. In general any benefit immediately available was by in large traceable to something was wrong in the first place and installing what ever it was corrected the basic problem and the installation either looked way too kool or made go fast noises or some combination of both thus the improvement was claimed to be a direct result of the “new” thingy rather than the repair of what is broken. Most, but not all, but most performance enhancing parts address the operating limits of an engine and are very rarely visible until that limit is reached. On a street driven car, those limits are rarely reached. In a pure racing environment they are reached and exceeded routinely in a well defined and generally measured manner. I like most back yard builders depend on the seat of the pants dyno, a subjective manner of determining an improvement based in part on the predetermined expectation. Roller Rockers on a push rod engine have a measurable expectation of results based on cam shaft profile and rpm. And when pushed to that level work. Are expensive to install and largely unless actually driven under those conditions cause premature valve train failure due to lifter problems, cam shaft wear, excessive weight on the valve train and the pressures needed due to extra weight of the components caused by increased valve spring tension. All of which does nothing for normal driving and probably has a negative impact because now mores law has taken over, more cam does not mean better drivability, so drivability can go down the toilet. Not to mention if the rest of the engine is not modified to take advantage of more and better valve lift at extreme rpm, the engine is rpm limited by other area’s and will rarely run in the range of benefit one can get from the change over. Which pretty much says, a well built Flat Tappet V8 with an aggressive but streatable cam shaft profile, the right intake system and exhaust and an ignitions system that will deliver spark at the rpm’s the engine can run at can and will out perform the engine with roller rockers, but little else to back them up with. But the are Kool and Expensive. All of the above is both arguable and subject to opinion. My point is one of questionable results based on installing a round tube with a cone filter on a small displacement engine that when installed eliminates the factory designed fresh air input to the engine and replaces it with hot under hood air. A known way to decrease the efficiency of an engine. The assumption is that replacing the factory designed intake system provides you with something more efficient. I don’t see the truth in that. My Saturn is bone stock. I would like another 15 hp for it. I do not see 15 hp in bolt on additions to the cosmetic appearance of the engine nor do I see replacing an air cleaner that is arguably large enough to not cause a restriction to the air flow that the engine can run at on the street in normal driving and does supply fresh outside air, a known performance improving method with one the supplies hot under hood air. As to air need, flow or usage. That is dictated by the size of the motor and the rpm it runs at. An engine is an air pump. It can by itself pump X amount of air at a given rpm. The limitation is not the size of the are filter, but the restrictions with in the air filter system. And if they are large enough, they do not factor in to the equations. Engine can not have too much air by changing the filter to bigger. Engines are regularly supercharged or turb-blown which either method increases the air available to the engine and to utilize the increased air other modifications have to be made to it to gain a maximum benefit. Most of my building has been small I6 or I4 engines and with those the limits defined by the factory designed intake and exhaust have rarely made any difference in the measurable performance or that sensed by the seat of the pants unless there has been first a measurable problem with how the engine ran or a serious and observable restriction in either the intake air path or the exhaust. At street driven performance levels. Chassis Dyno work or Drag strip measurable time differences on small displacement engine modifications to an engine that was actually in good shape in the first place has been insignificant on intake and exhaust changes including hi-flow catalytic converters and larger exhaust. Are there a place in the automotive world for these changes? Yes! But generally under extreme conditions and/or some seriously expensive modifications that also take into account something more than an isolated case such as drag strip times. I have for example, achieved a measurable increase in both performance and economy by replacing a 178cfm 2 bbl carburetor with a fuel injection system capable of flowing the equivalent amount of air of upwards of 500 cfm. The engine was under carbureted. It dropped dead at 3800 rpm. With the installation of the Port Injection system it now ran to end of cam shaft limits, about 5500 rpms. But at what cost? About $3300.00 for the F.I. system. Something I could have done with a 4bbl carb at about $300.00 worth of parts. But did not. And on top of that, the F.I. program operation required me to have a 2200 rpm stall torqueconverter to actually work correctly. An animal of a whole different caliber. So over the top? Maybe, but a skeptic yes. My Saturn as stated is a 94, bone stock in good shape. I like it, it is quick. The best feature is the programmable automatic transmission with a sport and economy setting which controls what gear it is in and when. I have scared the hell out of new mustangs with it. In sport mode. Where does it fall on it’s face? Climbing 7% grades at freeway speeds of 75mph on cruis-control. It does not have the power to maintain speed under those conditions. Fuel mileage, regularly 33mpg on the open road. Low 20’s somewhere in mixed city traffic. Depending on how I drive it. My only other experience was a friends 99 5 speed car regularly got 45mpg + making the same trip I get 33 on. Don’t know why. I guess I did not think my 33mpg was out of line with reality. I just personally question the advantage of a metal tube that looks nice. If it works for you, than I am wrong. And admit it. I am a skeptic. But a 2mpg increase if fuel economy can be achieved by changing driving habits too. These things and cat back exhaust systems some how do not ring well with my way of thinking. So sorry, no offence intended nor meant. If I question the expenditure, that is o.k., I can, so can you. You ought to see some of mine. |
Quote
I was reading over your post again and something hit me. I guess I should have specified what exactly I put on my car. When you said, quote "The limitation is not the size of the are filter, but the restrictions with in the air filter system." un quote. It hit me, your exactly right. Anyway, I did not go out and buy a complete CAI system. All I did was take the stock filter and air box off, and add a 3 inch outlet cone filter. I left the stock snorkle on to funnel fresh air to the filter. So by doing that I made the air intake for efficient, than stock. Unquote. That at face value makes some sense then. My FI conversion on to what was a carbureted I6 left me with pretty much the same quandry, the lack of a fresh air source (with out making major modifiations which at the time were beyond my capability) was some what solved by re-routing the fresh air duct. The fresh air duct was coupled to the Carburetor Air Cleaner and installing the FI pretty much was handled by routing an aluminim tube with the Cone shaped filter. I re-routed the ducting and put a partial deflector pointed at the filter. I never did really like that approach and am thinking that now I have a welder, to make up an enclosure so only fresh air gets to the filter. I am not sure it will do anything measurable but it will make me happy. Winters in Arizona can be equated to summers in places like up-state N.Y. and we have about 1/3 of the year with triple digit heat. I'd like to get something other than under hood air to it. But until recently have not figured out how. So the project has taken a back seat. And seemed to remain there for quite awhile due a basic operational flaw with the Fuel Injection which turned out to be the Torque Converter. Go figure on that. Right now I am about ready to install a Mercury Marine engine with a 700R4 into a 1976 Hornet Sportabout. I also am going to build a 4bbl carbureted I6 with a World Class T5 from a Turbo-4 T-bird to go into a Street Rod Roadster T-bucket. I have enough things to keep me busy. Happy New Years. |
Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 28483)
Quote
I was reading over your post again and something hit me. I guess I should have specified what exactly I put on my car. When you said, quote "The limitation is not the size of the are filter, but the restrictions with in the air filter system." un quote. It hit me, your exactly right. Anyway, I did not go out and buy a complete CAI system. All I did was take the stock filter and air box off, and add a 3 inch outlet cone filter. I left the stock snorkle on to funnel fresh air to the filter. So by doing that I made the air intake for efficient, than stock. Unquote. That at face value makes some sense then. My FI conversion on to what was a carbureted I6 left me with pretty much the same quandry, the lack of a fresh air source (with out making major modifiations which at the time were beyond my capability) was some what solved by re-routing the fresh air duct. The fresh air duct was coupled to the Carburetor Air Cleaner and installing the FI pretty much was handled by routing an aluminim tube with the Cone shaped filter. I re-routed the ducting and put a partial deflector pointed at the filter. I never did really like that approach and am thinking that now I have a welder, to make up an enclosure so only fresh air gets to the filter. I am not sure it will do anything measurable but it will make me happy. Winters in Arizona can be equated to summers in places like up-state N.Y. and we have about 1/3 of the year with triple digit heat. I'd like to get something other than under hood air to it. But until recently have not figured out how. So the project has taken a back seat. And seemed to remain there for quite awhile due a basic operational flaw with the Fuel Injection which turned out to be the Torque Converter. Go figure on that. Right now I am about ready to install a Mercury Marine engine with a 700R4 into a 1976 Hornet Sportabout. I also am going to build a 4bbl carbureted I6 with a World Class T5 from a Turbo-4 T-bird to go into a Street Rod Roadster T-bucket. I have enough things to keep me busy. Happy New Years. |
On my S-Cars, ION's, Solstice, Redline ION and so on I never saw a fuel mileage increase from a ColdAir or Short ram Intake.
|
Originally Posted by RjION
(Post 28532)
On my S-Cars, ION's, Solstice, Redline ION and so on I never saw a fuel mileage increase from a ColdAir or Short ram Intake.
|
I guess that is why on many of these items the advertising claims on them very carefully read;
Up to Which is never interpreted to read; In actuality, less than. So many items of the moment are sold because of Bling, hype or just plain old fashion hucksterism. My favorite going back in time was the surface fire spark plugs from the 1950's: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Picture:+%22Surface+Fire%22+spark+plugs&h l=en&sa=X&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=otdNDwqbR2ajJM :&imgrefurl=http://400greybike.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D22%26t%3D3342&docid=njovXQ8-cSfOfM&imgurl=http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b171/Cammo78/NGKraceplug.jpg&w=640&h=480&ei=E_UCT96fKeaeiQLauMC qDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=319&vpy=121&dur=3047&hovh=1 94&hovw=259&tx=163&ty=113&sig=10401778687411168262 6&page=1&tbnh=169&tbnw=225&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t: 429,r:1,s:0&biw=1352&bih=535 They had no electrode spacing. The functioned from the center electrode to the side of the casing and assuming never fouled, they also never need adjusting. Common physics pretty much says electicity will jump a gap of X distance at Y voltage and create a spark which is what it takes to fire off a fuel air mixture. Rembering that automotive engineering had taken a back seat to piston air plane technology as applied during WWII in order to make a piston engine run at altitude long enough to make a 1600 or so mile round trip at 40,000 feet or so, where -60 degrees was not unknown as average temperature and the life span of an air plane and it's crew were measured in months or less the objectives and thus some parts that actually met them were not known as being able to go reliablity 1700 miles. These were advertised to make your fuel more powerful than that used by locomotives. Which gasoline is anyway to start with but who is keeping score. Then there was the spark intensifier that was sold by the handful at carnivals which consisted of a plastic insert for the coil lead that induced a gap into the space between the coil and the lead going to the distributor. Which caused the coil to build to a higher voltage before it could jump the gap. (basic physics again) which if your spark plug were foulded, would indeed cause them to burn out the deposits and work rather than miss-fire. What was unsaid was the reduced life of the coil being stessed like that, cross firing of the generally poorer quality ignition wires of the time and that if everything was working fine in the first place, did nothing for you. All of the money in the world poured into an electronic ignition vs the kettering or points and condensor of a standard ignition at the time did nothing to improve an already functioning engine. What did change was the need to perform periodic maintainence due to wear of points and the short life of spark plugs. And it was smog requirements not performance that drove the introduction of high voltage elecronic factory ignitions. The factory had to warrentee the smog performance for 50,000 miles and the only way to insure that was to build a no maintainence ignition system that would run 50,000 miles with out some one needing to get into it. I would like to have afforded dyno time on a couple of engines I built. Most of us do this on a budget and dyno time is not part of it. Bling sells, no matter what it is called during the ages. I have a book I have enjoyed printed in 1907 which is one year before the kettering ignition was invented by the boys over at Dupont a division of GM at the time. I have used it to mathematically model a Nascar Daytona engine. An engine that today can cost upwards of $50,000 or better and run at 9000 rpm and develop upwards of 900 hp and run in that tune for say, about 1000 miles if you are lucky and take care of it right. Many of us are driving cars that develope far less than that and run reliably 200,000 miles or better under almost pure neglect. I got lucky and had some chassis dyno time with one engine I built and any of the popular tricks of the time having to do with intake air handlng had no measurable change in horse power developed at the rear wheels. Drag strip performance has shown no change in exhaust system modifications such as different mufflers and high flow catalytic converters. Which tells me that IF the factory design is pretty much free of restriction than there is little improvement that can be expected from an expensive exhaust system. I have gotten measurable improvements using an H pipe with a V8 dual exhaust system. I have not gotten measurable improvement from headers. I have gotten measurable improvement from V8 dual exhaust vs single exhaust. My Saturn gets 33 mpg regularly on a trip to LA providing I use Cruise Control. It has a 10 gallon gas tank and that means I can get to a breakfast stop at about 270 miles out with out having to stop. I can not do it if I do not use Cruise. My Mitsubishi Van averaged 29 mpg day in and day out for 270,000 miles. My Chrysler Town and Country gets 11mpg on a 10 stop per hour delivery route and 24mpg at 75 miles an hour on I40 between Flagstaff and Atlanta or somewhere in there fully loaded with both a/c running and on cruise. Driving habits can affect fuel mileage. Building on a budget I have found Bling rarely effects performance but looks good. My avatar is my Mercury Maring engine I am building. It is a budget engine. The only new visible item is nothing except the paint. I am running a new Iskenderian Cam shaft and lifters. I bought it out of a boat and knowing the engine it was a gamble that I made a good deal. I won. It looked like crap. It looks good now and is compatible to the use in the car it is going into shortly. My cash out lay on this engine totals to about $900.00 including buying the engine. Pretty much anything Blingy on it was purchased used and required hours of cosmetic reconstruction to look good again. And actually so was pretty much anything else. Pretty much the only thing used from the boat application was the long block less cam system and the motor mounts. Everything else purchased was used, junkyard, swap meet and horse traded or a gasket set, spark plugs and Iskenderian Cam. Some modificatons are going to have to be taken at face value as to whether worked for a person or not. Or whether it is a reaction to buying Bling and being impressed with it. A shiny tube with a cone filer does not impress me as to it's function if any will contribute to the operation of what ever it is on. However, that is not to say that it won't under given conditions. And some one is going to have a driving condition that it actually favors. I guess. Or can. After all it is advertised as "Up To" which means some times it actually does what they say. the rest of us have to make a value judgement as to whether it would work for our driving conditions. |
How dirty was the filter.........? Hard to believe the cold air set up was that restricted that converting to a hot shortram increaced the mileage.
Mind you I'm not saying your numbers are not good.....just seems so very odd that any car manufacture would leave that much gas mileage on the plate when thats a selling point for compact cars, not to mention they need cafe numbers as high as they can get them. |
08astraxr .............. where did ya go?
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Originally Posted by RjION
(Post 29311)
08astraxr .............. where did ya go?
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Good to know your still around.
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Cooooool ....................
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Hope your Mom is doing ok.
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Originally Posted by sw2cam
(Post 29419)
Hope your Mom is doing ok.
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Good to hear your mom is home and doing well. Triglycerides should be under 200 least thats what they tell me when I get blood work done and thats every six months. Mine hovers in the 140-150 area.
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Oh ok I don't know if they might be higher with someone who is diabetic. But I know they should have been way lower than my moms were. We are very glad she's home. She's feeling better everyday.
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She's home and doing better every day, thats the best we can hope for. Hope to see you back posting in the forum soon. Your just a few clicks away from 50 and you'll get an avatar. Would be good to see more pictures of your ASTRA on the site also.
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Glad to hear your mother is getting better..........................
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You still alive 08astraxr?
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Another one bites the dust.
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Originally Posted by sw2cam
(Post 30119)
Another one bites the dust.
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Well good to see your still around, better yet your Moms doing good.
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What you need is information on what a code zero is and I don't know. But I have some Saturn Specific diagnostics that I will look up tonight and see if anything is mentioned on them. I don't memorise that stuff but I do have books and I can read. Last weekend I bought a Chiltons manual on Vacuum diagrams for cars of the 80's. You have no idea how many variations there are on a single car and engine combination for those years and how many damned fools say I have a vacumn line loose that have no clue where it goes and generally it represents 2 problems not one. But they are experts having no idea why their car runs like crap. I have one collector car that it took me 6 months to get it to run right because the vacuum lines were incorrect and there were 11 different variations that car could have. The 49 state automatic and standard transmission variation, the California, the high altitutde or Denver Variation, the light truck variation and the Canadian ones. Not to mention the 3 or 4 that had different variations due to the rear axle ratio. But, the owner at the time insisted that it was correct with nothing wrong it just had a loose vacuum line.
Yeah! And pigs fly tool. Sorry I got carried away. I'll look up the code 0000 stuff tonight and I think your car is listed some where. Check back later. |
Thank you sir.. I'll check back
Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 30135)
What you need is information on what a code zero is and I don't know. But I have some Saturn Specific diagnostics that I will look up tonight and see if anything is mentioned on them. I don't memorise that stuff but I do have books and I can read. Last weekend I bought a Chiltons manual on Vacuum diagrams for cars of the 80's. You have no idea how many variations there are on a single car and engine combination for those years and how many damned fools say I have a vacumn line loose that have no clue where it goes and generally it represents 2 problems not one. But they are experts having no idea why their car runs like crap. I have one collector car that it took me 6 months to get it to run right because the vacuum lines were incorrect and there were 11 different variations that car could have. The 49 state automatic and standard transmission variation, the California, the high altitutde or Denver Variation, the light truck variation and the Canadian ones. Not to mention the 3 or 4 that had different variations due to the rear axle ratio. But, the owner at the time insisted that it was correct with nothing wrong it just had a loose vacuum line.
Yeah! And pigs fly tool. Sorry I got carried away. I'll look up the code 0000 stuff tonight and I think your car is listed some where. Check back later. |
Originally Posted by uncljohn
(Post 30135)
And pigs fly too.
08Astr -- never heard of a code 0 but I am most interested to find out |
Well, after an extensive search of my servicing documentation I found?
Not much useful. There were two general references made. One of which basically says that the read outs that are capable of being displayed were primarily a function of the scan tool in use. Now considering that the the S cars are a bit long in tooth, that tidbit of information gets multiplied by what ever technology is or is not longer in use today. Along with that, there was no mention of a zero or 0000 display which may or not be a starting display that is displayed if no others are available to be read. Dunno. But if you take the following information: A problem may eist even if DTCs are not present. About 80 percent of the driveability problems occur without setting DTCs. Sensors that are out of calibration will not set a DTC but will cause driveability problems. Using a sccan tool is the easiest method of checking sensor specifications and other data parameters. Scan tool is also useful in finding inttermittent wiring problems by wiggling wire harnesses and connetions (key n, engine off) while observing data paremeters. Which assumes I guess, you know what the parameters are, your scan tool can read them and the connectors are any damned good after age and weather conditions have beat on the for periods up to 20 years and they have not previously been damaged trying to get the things disconnected. After years of working on electronics trying to get these connectors apart with out breaking them is an excersize in pure frustration. I have on file muiltiple pages of things to do in the circumstances you describe, in part written as if you know what you are doing and how to do it. A brief summery of those multiple pages is wiggle wires and connectors and see if it can be repeated. Past that? There is no way I could replicate that information and I am not sure I could live long enough to re-type it. The bottom line? It makes sense to me why so many 10 year old or so used cars on the market that don't run worth a crap. I just spent about $300.00 in parts putting a new radiator in my 2007 van. The plastic end caps cracked and leaked. it took 4 days to complete it. I have no idea whether I could have afforded to pay some one a grand or better to >fix< it when the odds are, they would have broken more than I do, fixing it. Sorry. Can't answer. But I tried. |
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