Newbey Back Again
#1
09-27-2018, 11:41 PM
Newbey Back Again
Been away from Saturn forums for awhile. 4 years of college getting 2 two yr degrees in applied science. One in welding and fabrication and the other in CNC machining. I have 3 terms left... I do remember talking to Derf some 4 or 5 years ago. I am a little slow on the computer side of things so I will try not to get kicked. I have 2 Saturn SC2's a 95 and a 96. Just bought a 2001 motor to put in the 96 which is why I back trying to find all the good information this community has.
Thanks,
Walt
Thanks,
Walt
#3
09-28-2018, 08:01 AM
Welcome back. And congrats on getting some education. I'm not sure, but I think you may have a few sensors that may be different on the 01 than they were in the 96. Derf may know for sure.
#4
09-30-2018, 11:19 AM
2001 in a 96?
Eek.
The 3rd gen s cars 99/00 to 2002 have a body control model that controls all the interior stuff that up to 98 was controlled, in addition to the engine management, by the PCM.
An air pump was added in 98, which the 96 will have no way to control.
The 2001 has a vertical throttle body. The 96 is horizontal.
I'm mentioning all this first because you need to decide whether to make the 2001 work as if it were a 96, or trick the entire car into thinking it is a 2001.
2001 to 96:
Ignoring air pump is only an issue as to whether you remove it and then have to find a way to close off the slot in the exhaust manifold it receives exhaust gas from. If the engine comes stripped of all accessories, then you have to deal with closing off the hole. I believe they changed from a 5 bolt to 9 bolt exhaust manifold by this time, so you can't use your 96 exhaust manifold on it. Please check on this. I am going from memory.
The throttle body on a 2001 is vertical. You will likely need a new throttle cable if you use the new throttle body. I don't know if they changed the intake manifold when they changed the throttle body orientation. There will have to be some modifications to something somewhere to make the old air intake piping connect to the new throttle body. Hopefully they did not move the filter box so that you can just snag the air intake off a 2001.
I am no brake specialist, but the 3rd gen coupes had rear drum brakes. Since you're not swapping out the abs module, you should be ok.
On the issue of which PCM should run the car....
You need to stick with the 96 and just connect things that are the same as the 96, and basically ignore everything else, including BCM related stuff as the 96 doesn't have one. All of that functionality is handled by your 96 PCM.
I don't know off hand which sensors have changed or been added. You'll want to look into this, especially to make sure the crank position sensor did not change because the number of teeth on the reluctor ring on the crank changed.
If it did, you are sentenced to using the 2001 pcm bcm and probably the entire wiring harness from 2001. Cheaper in that case to sell the engine and pick up another.
EDIT: .You could investigate a crank swap if needed, but when they changed the head design for the 3rd gen coupes, I do not know what if anything, was changed on the bottom of the engine.
I'm sure I am missing things, so don't go running forward with things without doing some more in-depth research.
Eek.
The 3rd gen s cars 99/00 to 2002 have a body control model that controls all the interior stuff that up to 98 was controlled, in addition to the engine management, by the PCM.
An air pump was added in 98, which the 96 will have no way to control.
The 2001 has a vertical throttle body. The 96 is horizontal.
I'm mentioning all this first because you need to decide whether to make the 2001 work as if it were a 96, or trick the entire car into thinking it is a 2001.
2001 to 96:
Ignoring air pump is only an issue as to whether you remove it and then have to find a way to close off the slot in the exhaust manifold it receives exhaust gas from. If the engine comes stripped of all accessories, then you have to deal with closing off the hole. I believe they changed from a 5 bolt to 9 bolt exhaust manifold by this time, so you can't use your 96 exhaust manifold on it. Please check on this. I am going from memory.
The throttle body on a 2001 is vertical. You will likely need a new throttle cable if you use the new throttle body. I don't know if they changed the intake manifold when they changed the throttle body orientation. There will have to be some modifications to something somewhere to make the old air intake piping connect to the new throttle body. Hopefully they did not move the filter box so that you can just snag the air intake off a 2001.
I am no brake specialist, but the 3rd gen coupes had rear drum brakes. Since you're not swapping out the abs module, you should be ok.
On the issue of which PCM should run the car....
You need to stick with the 96 and just connect things that are the same as the 96, and basically ignore everything else, including BCM related stuff as the 96 doesn't have one. All of that functionality is handled by your 96 PCM.
I don't know off hand which sensors have changed or been added. You'll want to look into this, especially to make sure the crank position sensor did not change because the number of teeth on the reluctor ring on the crank changed.
If it did, you are sentenced to using the 2001 pcm bcm and probably the entire wiring harness from 2001. Cheaper in that case to sell the engine and pick up another.
EDIT: .You could investigate a crank swap if needed, but when they changed the head design for the 3rd gen coupes, I do not know what if anything, was changed on the bottom of the engine.
I'm sure I am missing things, so don't go running forward with things without doing some more in-depth research.
.
Last edited by derf; 09-30-2018 at 11:26 AM.
#5
09-30-2018, 08:19 PM
*accessing remaining non forgotten LLO knowledge*
from what I remember, the 98+ crank is better than the earlier one due to being lighter and stronger/better balanced... the pistons and rods changed to slightly lengthen the time spent at TDC...
in the late years they did away with one of the ECTS ports in the head, using one sensor to feed data to the PCM and then to the gauge instead of a sensor for each... using a newer head in an older car will require adding in an ECTS port (I suggest adding in a port for the gauge and feeding the PCM the signal from the original port)
third gen S cars all came with a plastic intake manifold instead of aluminum, for less heat transfer... YES you CAN port a plastic manifold if you’re careful, it just won’t turn out quite as smooth as the factory casting but it won’t matter much...
fuel rails may may be different and this may prevent you from using the plastic intake manifold
no clue which exhaust manifold is with which year but they did change from 5 bolt to 9
no clue how to delete smog pump...
from what I remember, the 98+ crank is better than the earlier one due to being lighter and stronger/better balanced... the pistons and rods changed to slightly lengthen the time spent at TDC...
in the late years they did away with one of the ECTS ports in the head, using one sensor to feed data to the PCM and then to the gauge instead of a sensor for each... using a newer head in an older car will require adding in an ECTS port (I suggest adding in a port for the gauge and feeding the PCM the signal from the original port)
third gen S cars all came with a plastic intake manifold instead of aluminum, for less heat transfer... YES you CAN port a plastic manifold if you’re careful, it just won’t turn out quite as smooth as the factory casting but it won’t matter much...
fuel rails may may be different and this may prevent you from using the plastic intake manifold
no clue which exhaust manifold is with which year but they did change from 5 bolt to 9
no clue how to delete smog pump...
#6
09-30-2018, 10:49 PM
Temp Sensors
95 was the last year for twin Temp sensors
OK
------------------------
Intake Manifolds
95-98 Intake manifolds interchange.
99-2k Intake manifolds interchange
Must use 2001
-----------
95-98 throttle bodies interchange.
99-2k throttle bodies interchange.
Must use 2001 w 2001 intake. No idea if throttle cable is different nor if it is routed differently
----------------
Injectors
96-02 Injectors swap
------------
Heads
99+ Gen3 Heads are NOT compatible with older heads. Completely redesigned. Compatible with any year block.
Must use 2001 Head
-----------------------------
Exhaust manifolds
DOHC 99-02 are 9 bolt
All prior are 5 bolt
Must use 2001 Exhaust Manifold
Creates smog pump delete issue or leave smog pump on and route hot exhaust away somewhere
---------------------
Cranks]
93-99 cranks are interchangeable
Do NOT know if 200-2002 are identical w r t reluctor ring, It needs to be the same position and number of teeth for the CKP to generate a signal and for the 96 PCM to understand the signal.
?????
---------------
1991 - 1997 Have the wonderful fuel return line.
1998 - 2002 Have the returnless fuel system.
Not sure how you handle this one. The piping in the car expects a return connection but there is nothing to connect to from the 01 fuel rail.
Pretty sure it can be done by converting 96 to returnless
??????
--------------
Those are your hurdles that I know about. Actually, I only know they exist from the Saturn Swap Guide that's been out there for DOHCs for 12 years
I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.
95 was the last year for twin Temp sensors
OK
------------------------
Intake Manifolds
95-98 Intake manifolds interchange.
99-2k Intake manifolds interchange
Must use 2001
-----------
95-98 throttle bodies interchange.
99-2k throttle bodies interchange.
Must use 2001 w 2001 intake. No idea if throttle cable is different nor if it is routed differently
----------------
Injectors
96-02 Injectors swap
------------
Heads
99+ Gen3 Heads are NOT compatible with older heads. Completely redesigned. Compatible with any year block.
Must use 2001 Head
-----------------------------
Exhaust manifolds
DOHC 99-02 are 9 bolt
All prior are 5 bolt
Must use 2001 Exhaust Manifold
Creates smog pump delete issue or leave smog pump on and route hot exhaust away somewhere
---------------------
Cranks]
93-99 cranks are interchangeable
Do NOT know if 200-2002 are identical w r t reluctor ring, It needs to be the same position and number of teeth for the CKP to generate a signal and for the 96 PCM to understand the signal.
?????
---------------
1991 - 1997 Have the wonderful fuel return line.
1998 - 2002 Have the returnless fuel system.
Not sure how you handle this one. The piping in the car expects a return connection but there is nothing to connect to from the 01 fuel rail.
Pretty sure it can be done by converting 96 to returnless
??????
--------------
Those are your hurdles that I know about. Actually, I only know they exist from the Saturn Swap Guide that's been out there for DOHCs for 12 years
I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.
#7
10-02-2018, 11:07 PM
Wow, thanks for all the great info! This is the reason I came back! Looks like I have some planning to do. Thought it would be a simple drop in but looks like I need to do some more research. Not that familiar about where to post more questions about this swap but look forward to talking to all of you about it. Thanks again sooo much!
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