Brake drag - not caliper or line - need help
 

Hi all - I am new to your forum. I have read many of the post related to the Saturn VUE XE 2WD brake drag and here is the issue:
I have 2008 VUE 2 WD. While driving the car starts to feel like it won't go (no power) and I smelled something hot. Also had a vibration from the front. Pulled over and the right front wheel was extremely hot. So hot it could not be touched at all and smelt burnt.

After cooling and suspecting a stuck brake - I backed up and tapped the brakes - this seemed to free the brake and I drove home with no problem.

After researching the problem on - line, I replaced the caliper, the caliper bracket, and the rubber brake hose and with the bracket - bled the lines and tried it again - same problem.

Now I am not sure what to do - can anyone help?

Could this be something other than the brakes?
If it is brakes - what is causing them to drag and how can I tell?

Vibration sounds like a warped rotor.
If it is bad enough, it can rub on the pads even with the brakes not applied -- though it would need to be BAD, and the pads hanging up ever so slightly (tho not too much with new ones.)

If it did rub, it would create heat in the pad, which would heat up the rotor, which would heat up the pad>>>runaway heat >> everything swells together.
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Do you still feel the vibration when braking after your caliper/etc swap? If so, I suspect the front right rotor to be the cause.

Replace BOTH the left and right rotors (you do them in pairs). Actually -- replace the right one first and see if the problem goes away (along with the vibration)

The intermittent nature of the problem seems wonky; does the problem only begin at high speed or low speed driving?

Only other think I can think of is guide or attachment pins insufficiently smooth and lubricated (or bent).

If the caliper piston was unable to retract, I'[d suspect a leak --but if you can wait the whole time it cooled down and tap the pedal, there's no way the caliper piston is at fault

Thanks for the quick reply.
I still feel the vibration - definitely feels like a warped rotor when braking.
When replacing the caliper - I noticed some "hot" spots on the rotor - parts store did not have one in stock - so I put the caliper assembly and brake line on and still have the problem.
I will replace the rotor and let you know what happens.

I'm in agreement with derf on this one. Once a rotor gets that frigging hot, it's most likely going to warp. I'd go ahead and replace the caliper guide pins too, as they don't cost that much. Make sure to lubricate them with the proper lube from the parts store. Since you replaced the caliper and hose, I don't see what else it could be.

I was leaning towards rotor as well. Wanted other peoples input first though.


Glad to see im finally learning :)

I will put a new rotor on this weekend. In the mean time, does anyone think that the ABS or traction control could cause the original overheat issue?

I dont think it would, but check the wires for corrosion while your down there anyway.

Unless the traction control or ABS lights are on on the dash, I'd say no. Plus you'd hear your ABS chattering and if it really thought it needed to stop that wheel completely, it would. You haven't mentioned any chattering or flashing (active system) ABS lights. So no, I don't think it's involved.

Update - so I installed a new rotor on the wheel giving me a problem. The issue is still there and "seems" worse. The overall symptoms are: after driving about 15 minutes or so, the car seems as if it has no power, then I can smell the hot wheel. If I back up and tap the brakes - it gets better to allow me to drive home. To date, that wheel has new caliper, new bracket and pins, new rotor, and new brake hose. Something is not letting the caliper release the pressure. What is left to check? I assume the only components left are the booster and master cylinder. Any ideas on what else to check?

The new rotor is full thickness(full spec). so the problem appears sooner....arrrgghh
You can put the older one back on rather than heat the brand new one up and warp it. My opinion anyway.

In theory, you may have a partial plug/restriction in that one brake line--the portion running from the master cylinder to the flex hose by that wheel---or a bunch of crap throughout the line that keeps intermittently restricting the flow of fluid, especially in the reverse direction (under negative pressure which should retract the piston in the caliper.) Or it could be a bad seal at the master cylinder such that there is no negative pressure building up when you release the brakes--hence the piston stays put. But then you

If it were the booster, you'd likely have a hard time stopping the car, period. Like driving with manual brakes.

IIRC, today's master cylinders are designed with a diagonal Front/Rear fluid routing configuration so that if the seal on either chamber fails, you always have one front and one rear wheel to stop the car.

If the master cyl seal for that frt/rear combo was bad, you should be having identical problems with the wheel diagonally to the rear of the front causing you the problem.

Your tap on the brakes applies additional POSITIVE pressure to the caliper, which probably dislodges stuff enough to retract far enough that the pads are no longer in contact w the rotor.

My guess is

1)crud in the line to the front wheel and/or corrosion in that line, producing crud.

2)Old brake fluid which has adsorbed water, is compressible and you do not want water in the system. The fluid may be significantly degraded such that the fluid mixture in the lines is actually boiling and forming steam.

a) Did you bleed the entire system or just at that one caliper?
b)How many miles were on the brake fluid when you started having this problem?
c)What came out when you bled the system the very first time after replacing the caliper? What color, were there particulates, etc
d) did you use a brand new unopened brake fluid container to add new brake fluid?

Recommendation:
a)flush the entire system with brand new unopened brake fluid.
b) replace the line from the master to the flex hose at the problem wheel.
c) bleed the entire system in the order specified for the vehicle.

To quote Rube, I am NOT a mechanic, The above represents my best attempt at analyzing your problem and recommending a solution. Use at your own risk. I do my best not to encourage people to spend money on things that will not fix the issue. And, as demonstrated to date, neither of us "shotgun" parts, as that does nothing but leave you with less money and a bunch of parts that do not necessarily have anything to do w solving the problem.

If there are holes in my analysis, I welcome all constructive criticism as it only helps everyone learn how the system DOES work and where my assumptions went wrong.

PLEASE, forum folks, read the above and see if I took a wrong turn somewhere. Brake lines are not cheap, and junkyard ones are likely to be corroded internally as well...

I'm inclined to agree with derf. I'd definitely flush EVERY brake line with new fluid through the master cylinder. If that stuff doesn't come out clear, then you have a blockage somewhere. It's been a LONG time since I really had to screw with a brake problem besides just replacing worn out parts, so, kind of like maybe your system, I'm a little rusty. Maybe the steel line going to that wheel got hit by a rock or something and has a dent in it or is maybe pinched. You put pressure on the fluid to activate the caliper and pads, but the fluid won't flow backwards to release the pressure? IDK, I'm just speculating after a 13 hour drive from TN to FL today.

Short update - I have bled the right front line all the way through. Actually put the fluid in a glass mason jar to inspect. Fluid looked the same as the new fluid and no debris. Ran about 1/2 quart through. There has to be something applying pressure or preventing the release of pressure. I noticed there are lots of articles and post on the internet about this problem - however, no one has posted a solution yet - so must be a common problem. Others have mentioned brake pressure control modules??? Can you someone explain this component to me and give your opinion of this could be at fault and how to test?

Also, I was thinking through the history of this car - in the past 2 years, the ABS/Traction/ brake lights would come on and I found that was due to low brake fluid. I added fluid and all was well. This happened about 3 times. I looked and looked and never could find any fluid leaks. This is still a mystery - but I am starting to think it may be related. Next step I guess is to replace the metal brake line going to the problem wheel. This will take me some more time.

I don't know about a brake pressure control module. Never heard of it. Is that similar to an ABS pump? I have read that those damn things can cause problems when they start to go bad. I doubt that it's related since you haven't mentioned any codes, but a few years ago I had a piece of crap Equinox that lit up my traction control, abs and some brake related code that I can't recall. Stopped at an Autozone and had codes read (I was on a trip), and it showed a bad EGR circuit. WTF? Yep, bought a new EGR valve, cleared the passage where it was mounted and cleared the codes and it never came back. Got rid of that piece of crap and got my Chrysler 200. Run the codes on yours just for the hell of it and see if anything shows up. The cars of today are some strange creatures thanks to all of the electronics and computers.

You'll likely need a true scanner to access all the codes stored in the different modules of the car. There are codes other than Pxxxx codes. There are B codes, U codes, P codes and C codes.

See the Awesome attached thumbnail pic attached.

(Goalie -- we have to sticky just the pic)

It IS possible in theory that by letting the system get so low on fluid, the abs passage for that wheel got fubar ed and is not passing fluid correctly. It is my LIMITED understanding (AND I MAY BE WRONG AS I AM NO BRAKE EXPERT), that there is indeed a brake pressure control module in your vehicle, along with proportioning valves, the purpose being to regulate the pressure to each wheel such that appropriate braking force is applied to each wheel, which is vital during ABS brake activation in order to stop the car.

Shouldn't this throw on the ABS light during testing at startup? If it's just testing for positive stable brake pressure, then it would not in your case.

THE ABOVE IS A GUESS.

I suggest finding a somewhat remote road where you can speed up and mash the brake pedal to the floor and engage the ABS. Do this about 20 times. Wear your seat belt and be sure you are not in danger or hitting anything or anyone should the car not brake in a straight line.

The above should really flush through the ABS passages and proportioning valves. After each one, get out and check the problem wheel to see if the caliper is stuck.

You know how to release it, so do so and go on to the next run. Also --before starting, note the brake fluid level in the reservoir, and check after every five runs. If it's dropping and there's no leak, it may be refiling part of the ABS chamber (guess)

TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK

Bring along the wrench and some new brake fluid and a catch can in case the fluid level drops in the reservoir OR you end up needing to release the pressure at the wheel via the bleed valve (into a recovery catch can, not onto the ground

I've been a shade tree mechanic most of my life and successful at it. Derf is correct in saying some thing is not allowing the pressure to release the caliper so that it will move away from the rotor.
Basically on disc brakes pressure is applied to the caliper when the brake pedal is pushed down and then released when the foot goes off. The rotor which was squeezed by the pucks in the caliper is ever so slightly not exactly true and the movement of the rotor causes the pucks to retreat back into the caliper and the slight out of round kind of taps the pucks back out of the way. And you continue down the road. If the pucks do not retreat back into the caliper due to a mechanical problem such as rust or debris they will drag on the rotor and act as you describe, the brake is still applied and it will heat up the rotor and as the rotor heats up it will drag more causing the problems you have described up to and including warping the rotor causing a vibration. New Calipers should have solved the problem if it was mechanical and it didn't which points at what ever supplies the hydraulic pressure to the caliper. Ether corrosion in a break line cause a blockage so the fluid can not retreat from the caliper and go back to the master cylinder.
And here my knowledge stops. I do not know on your car where the pressure is generated to apply fluid to the caliper. If the lines are new and free of corrosion it is either in the master cylinder or what ever is between the master cylinder and the brakes on the wheel.
So what I am saying is I agree with derf and ruby and also say? Sorry I don't know what it is either. But it certainly is not what you have replaced already. So good luck

Update
 

Update - ok I pulled the master cylinder off and found that the brake booster was full to the top with brake fluid. The master cylinder had been leaking into the booster (this is why I never found any leaks in the lines or calipers). I replaced both the master cylinder and the booster. The wheel no longer has any problem! The only thing I am dealing with now is a spongy brake pedal - I will be bleeding the system again this weekend to ensure I have all the air out.

Congratulations on the find and fix. You may need to bleed the brakes a couple of times in order to get all of the air out of the lines. I always used the method of the longest line to the shortest for the bleed. My routine is right rear first, then the driver side rear, right front and last, drivers side front. Usually four pump, hold and release works to rid the air from each line. Check your m/c reservior after each 4 bleeds and top off as necessary.

that's a new one for me.....still wondering why only one wheel affected

While I still consider myself a pretty decent shade tree mechanic I too find this more than a bit fascinating.
First of all I also congratulate you on figuring out what the root cause of your problem was. How strange.
Truth is stranger than fiction the old saw goes.
But to comment a second on Derf's question, that of why the one wheel.
One part of the "new" technology I have yet to have a working knowledge of is the anti-lock brakes which are tied into the traction control.
And this just triggered as I took our 94 SC2 into smog test this week and as the operative stepped on the gas to get the rollers moving on the test machine a blinking light on the dash board quickly said TRACTION CONTROL as you hear the engine labor. You can sit in the passenger seat as an option while testing and I do, so I told the guy to stop testing which he did and pushed the button to turn the dang thing off.
And the test went on.
Some how through the marvel of engineering the mechanism between the Master Cylinder and the wheels can alter where the brake fluid goes when there is a differential in speed noticed between each wheel and what ever the magic box is that controls things causing each wheel brake to be applied as needed based on wheel speed between the 4 of them. I am not sure whether wheel speed is sensed only on the front (you can see a sensor near the perforated disc that is part of the spindle on the front when you pull a tire off) and that is good enough I guess when the wheels are controlled by this thing and I think right front/left rear and the other combination) so why one wheel? How about if things are screwed up due to this leak that the reason only one wheel is that the Traction Control/anit-lock brake mechanism got screwed up too.
No I don't know why, I have never figured out how they work. I bought a Dodge Van from a Junk Yard a number of years ago because at the time it was what I needed and could afford and the anti-lock brakes were messed up. I managed to get enough of it working so that it stopped when I put the brakes on but nothing worked correctly on the system. The sensor lines were broken and who knows what else. I could not figure it out and the internet said it was a problem for that era Dodge vans so I lived with it until I sold it.
Fortunately I have never had a problem with that system so I have not had to figure it out, but based on the fixed (wow, that impresses me) maybe the anti-loc system had something to do with why the one wheel only got affected.
As to the smog test? My 94 Saturn is now old. (2 years old when purchased) and the paint has gone due to the exposure to the UV from the sun so it looks pretty grungy. And as it is not driven that often any more when you open the hood there is a fair amount of desert dust observable and I saw the smog guys looking at it some what questionable as everything in line was spiffy and shiny except this one. And they had to ask how many miles on it because the odometer is broken so the manager had to come over. Twice! When done the paper worked was handed to me and the representative stood there shaking his head and said "This runs cleaner than the managers own car and it passed!" as if it was unbelievable.
No reason for it not to pass in my mind. It has about 110,000 miles on it, everything is in pretty much good shape and it runs right. That made me happy! It's been re-upholstered and I still need to repaint it again, (its on my round tuit list) I can make it work when it's broke but still have no idea how the anti-loc brakes function. (And the windows go up and down in part thanks to Ruby and I found out if you wax the windows they go up and down easier past the swipes on the doors. The rubber has gotten harder over the years and does not flex all that well causing a strain on the motors running the windows)

Most dragging problems come from the booster rod.It is not allowing the master cylinder to completely release the pressure. There has to be some play between the rod and the master, it is adjustable. Because the lines do not flex, the lines must be removed and the master removed to access the rod adjustment. I reach in with a long pair of pliers to hold the rod from turning and then reach in with a 7 mm socket and give it one whole turn clockwise. That usually does it. (To verify this is your problem, jack up vehicle and tires will not turn, open line at master and wheels will free up.) EVEN A NEW MASTER or BOOSTER HAS TO BE ADJUSTED. i have repaired many this way.