About to bleed brakes
 

I'm thinking about bleeding the brakes of the 95 Saturn SL1 I just got as the pedal seems to be travelling pretty low even though I still manage to stop the car. Or, will just adding more brake fluid in the master cylinder may help? I checked my Haynes manual and it says do not manually bleed the brakes myself if I have rear ABS. I don't think I have an ABS system but is there a way for me to confirm that, or should I just look up specs for 1995 Saturn SL1 somewhere?

Also, I checked old posts (as I always do before posting new ones) about brake bleeding and someone quoted their repair manual that the bleed order was rr, lf, lr, rf, at least for their 99 SL2. However, I thought you bleed from the point furthest from the master cylinder to the closest, which would then mean rr, lr, lf, rf, right? I thought you do the rear furthest first, the next rear, then the front furthest next, and so forth. I checked my Haynes manual and it said I only should bleed the brake at the point where I did work but doesn't it make sense to just bleed the whole system properly? Thanks.

The reason they suggest the "rr,lf,lr,rf" format is tricky, because the master cylinder is in reality two complete and distinct braking systems. One covers rr and lf, and the other covers lr and rf. This is done for safety sake should one of the two lines become damaged or inoperative ... so you see, they are, in fact, bleeding from furthest to closest

Because your car is a few years old, you should seriously consider "changing" the brake fluid especially if you have a soft pedal. Brake fluid by it's nature is hydroscopic. Over time it will absorb enough moisture to cause a soft pedal as well as rusted and damaged brake components. I have changed the fluid on all my vehicles and in each case have noticed a big difference! Last summer I changed it in my Corvette. This car has phenomenal brakes but the fluid looked dark so I changed it. The Corvette is only a couple of years old with 7000 miles. I noticed a much firmer pedal the first time I drove it. My point, even with low mileage, time will take it's toll on all fluids in your car.

Ok, I just verified that my 95 SL1 does NOT have ABS. In addition to bleeding the brakes, I'm going to change the front brake pads. Let's say if it DID have ABS, a front brake pad replacement should not be of concern like some of you mentioned about bleeding brakes, i.e., it should be the same as doing the pad change as one without ABS, right?

Also, since I'm doing both brake bleeding and front pad change, should I do one or the other first? Any preferred or recommended order?

Do the pad change first. Then if you feel you have to, bleed the brakes. Why? If anything goes wrong or requires more work that may result in the loss of fluid for one reason or another, you would have to do the brake bleed thing anyway all over again to make sure that all repairs are done well.

There speaks a man with logic on his brain ... well expressed, UnclJohn

That tells me that the master cylinder services each side, the right, then the left (or vice versa, depending on how you're facing the car). Is this unique for Saturns? You would figure if that be the case, you'd want the master cylinder to service the back in one system, then the front for the other system as far as a safety precaution, because if one side failed, would that resort to the car kind of spinning out because one side is locked while the other side is brakeless? Anyhow, I just keep seeing rr, lr, lf, rf published online for most non-ABS cars. I've done it this way previously, including most recently for my Honda Civic and my old Nissan pickup back then.

I just bled the brakes on my 2000 Honda Civic, by mistake originally, as I was just going to change the front pads but accidentally unscrewed the brake line bolt at the caliper instead of the caliper bolt itself and let some brake fluid out and therefore some air in, so I had no choice but to bleed the whole system. I used one of those one-man pumps like I did for my pickup and it takes some patience and lots of brake fluid to make sure you get a good flow of bubble-less fluid while topping off the master cylinder. I was surprised at how much more stopping power I have now, I mean even before I accidentally lost fluid and let air in the system the brake travel seemed fine, but with the new fluid my foot doesn't have to travel as far down to get any stopping power, just a slight tap will slow down the car quite a bit. Don't know if I have too much fluid in the master cylinder but it says I'm right at the full line, so maybe I was just so used to how far the brake pedal used to travel down. But I'm more comfortable with it now as I feel I have more stopping power.

Now it's my Saturn's turn next...

Ok, got my Haynes Saturn manual finally and saw indeed you were right with this bleed order. Just different from what I'm used to with going to bleed the left-front after bleeding the right-rear, usually I bleed the left-rear next but anyhow, sorry I doubted you in the first place.

I did try to use the one-man brake bleeding hand-pump like I was able to successfully do in my Nissan pickup and Honda Civic, worked really well for those two vehicles. But for the Saturn, fluid would not suction out of the rear lines when I tried pumping it out, so I was compelled to press the brake pedal to get it going, but unfortunately got air into the system in the process because I didn't close the bleed valve before releasing the brake pedal, so I'm going to have to do the WHOLE process all over again. I did notice that the front brakes bled easier with the hand pump so I may still use it for the fronts, as I got good bubble-less flow so I won't be losing much fluid at the fronts in the bleeding process, but unfortunately I still have to do the process all over again for all four lines because there is still air in the system, and this time I'm gonna have my son help me with the pumping the brake pedal, at least for the rears, to get the air out while I open and close the bleed valve propely.

I don't have much time before the sun goes down after I get home from work, so I assume I can just bleed one or maybe two brakes and continue the rest in the proper order the next day, as long as I close the bleed valves properly and close the cap to the master cylinder to keep air from making it's way into the system until I'm ready to do the next wheel the next day? Or, is it best to try and get all four done in sequence in one day?

I re-did the whole bleeding process, in the correct sequence for my car, a 95 Saturn SL1, even with the two-man system with my son pumping the brake pedal. Now, I did notice the back brakes don't seem to get a good flow of brake fluid out as the front brakes, especially the right-rear drum brake, I seem to be getting contaminated fluid because it was real dirty at first, and then it got clear as the new fluid came through, but it is not filling the flow tube completely like the other lines do, and it seems to be mixed with water or something that doesn't seem like it's completely brake fluid, which is making me think is the whole culprit to the whole thing. A co-worker of mine suggested to turn on the car to get boost and full pressure in the system to blow whatever is restricting that line, if any, but not sure if that's a great idea. Does anyone have a clue? Thanks in advance.

It is difficult to bleed brakes with one person. If doing it by pumping the pedal the objective is to push the pedal down and hold it that way while a 2nd part releases the bleeder and allows fluid to squirt through and then tighten the bleeder to seal the system so the pedal can be released and re-pumped up to apply pressure again. If there is not two people, one person can do it by attaching to tube to the bleeder fitting that is long enough to reach into a container that will be thrown away partially filled with brake fluid so that bleeder can be opened and then some one pumps the brakes. The idea being that when the pedal is pushed down fluid squirts out and when the pedal is released and allowed to return it will return faster than it takes to suck the now partially filled fluid back into the system so you can eventually pump enough fluid through by your self thus eleminiating air being sucked back in. Then you can go back and shut the bleeder while the tube is still emmersed in contaminated fluid.
Or a power bleeder.
Years ago I made an electric power bleeder I can just turn on and it takes care of bleeding each brake line by itself. All I have to do is open the bleeder then close it.
If you have a brake line that is full of crap, it sounds like some where along the line some one did it wrong.
Brake fluid absorbs moisture given a chance so it sounds like air got into the line a long time ago and is still there.
The solution is to pump fluid through it until it is clear and hope there is no further damage.
That has worked many times in the past.
But Water causes rust and rust will screw up a wheel cylinder with drum brakes or a caliper with disc brakes.

Apparently, no matter how much I bled the left-rear brake, I was getting nothing but bubbles, even with brand new brake fluid completely present in the lines now. I found where the air was getting sucked in the system. There seems to be a leak in the left-rear cylinder, I haven't taken a real close look yet because I have to clean all the dirt and grime stuck behind there, but that should have given me a clue when it started leaking in that area as I kept pumping brake fluid through in the process of bleeding, as the other rear wheel cylinder seemed fairly clean. I'm hoping it's just a lose bolt where the line meets the cylinder, but if it's the rear cylinder, I saw it was suggested to replace both sides. Does someone sell whole rear-brake assemblies, including the cylinder, shoes, and springs pre-assembled? Or do I have to get the parts separately and put them together myself? I figured it would be easier to just replace the whole assemblies on both sides than putz with the multiple parts.

Thanks uncljohn, apparently I did the whole procedure right, just found a leak explained in my subsequent post below.

I found the cause for my confusion, my interpretation of orientation, when it came to the front, was backwards, so yes, you were right. I was seeing it your way, but I was calling the right and left wrong (instead of from within the car, I was stating it as if I were facing the car). Again, sorry if I sounded I was doubting you when you were trying to help.

ur gonna have to putz!
 

A good question. I never thought of whole assemblies all preassembled.
I grew up rebuilding drum brakes. When disc brakes arrived it was a mystery, and expensive.
As it turned out it was duck soup except for the emergency brake which can be tricky.
I don't know how Saturns are set up mine has 4 wheel disc.
You can not buy parts pre-assembled. Dang good thought though.
Looking at all the bits and pieces you will find that they genrally are re-usable. The springs, the washer things, the pins etc. Generally just purchasing the brake shoes and a rebuild kit for the cylinder or a whole new cylinder is all that you have to worry about. Well that and getting it apart and back together.
Buying a new cylinder is an option. I have also rebuilt the one on the car by purchasng a kit and diss-assembling things and using something on the order of 280-300 wet dry sand paper and brake fluid and my finger, sanding the inside of the bore of the cylinder smooth was all that was required and then install new parts. But a new cylinder is a short cut to finishing faster. Personally I work with the philosophy of if it ain't broke don't fix it. If only one side leaks, fix the one that leaks.
You will need a brake spoon, used to adjust the brakes after rebuilding them although you can get away with using a flat blade screwd driver.
There are tools available for removing the springs. I use a combination of vice grips and a fairly large phillips (+) screw driver to help in taking tension off of the parts so the springs will come out or go back on.
A new vocaublary of swear words helps too,
Hine, do one at a time. So if you screw up, you have the other one to look at so you can see hot the bits and pieces go.
I have rebuilt a lot of them in my life. I can almost do it blind folded. It is a pain in the patooie. If this is your first time.
By a book with instructions. It does help.
Otherwise good luck
A note, why would I rebuild a cylinder rather than replace.?
Rust.
If it looks like I am going top break a brake line to the cylinder I won't touch it and just rebuild the one on the car.
Running new brakes lines is not a place I would rather go to.