98 SL2 intermitten bad starting problems***!!
 

hey guys need ur help.....i have 98 sl2 w only 75k!

when i drive the car and make long or short stops, usually when the car is hot, it has a problem restarting. it doesnt happen first time i start it from the night before only when it gets warm or hot right now.

it either turns over but no cigar or a total dead clicking sound happens when i turn the key. i let it cool down and then it will start again like a new car....!

never dies on the road, drives fine, tunedup last year.
just changed TPS, throttle pos. sensor last week cuz the code came up, no check engine light. i guess the tps ddnt help!....some one said cps or ect??

i heard if its cps it would only happen in drive or when car is drivin if cps? my car is fine when it gets started and drives, does that mean it still could be it?

do u knw code numbers and locations and r&r for these parts???
i think i changed the ect 30k ago w saturn part oem b/c of this, dont knw for sure, never kept records either did ex husband.lol.

let me know? any suggestions helpful.THANK YOU

The total dead with clicking is a battery/ battery connection(s)/Starter problem most likely. If it is related to the engine turns and still does not start it kinda points at some form of a battery connection problem with a lot of corrosion some where that many wires go from.
In general in my opinion the two symptoms are not related. If they are, it is a common power problem and if so that would have to be a corrosion related battery cable problem some where.
I would think anyway.

I would say battery aswell, if ya hit it and it clicks... bad connection or battery is just old and needs replaced.

if its turning over but not starting means no spark so I would say coil paks but..... usually when they quit thats it they don't cool off n start working again but I belive most auto parts stores could test the coil paks.

If it's computer related.... I haven't a clue...

ect?
 

i dont think its the battery/alt/starter. they were all checkd out at autozone and passed.
also, like i said the car starts half the time i turn the key and drives fine, sometimes it doesnt start for a bit and i have to wait till it cool downs and it starts.

why wouldnt it be ect or cps sensor???

thanks.

ects and its annoying that you leave out details like dead click in half your posts making it difficult to give you sound advice.

JoshKAva, turning over but not starting does not necessarily mean no spark

Follow up*****ects or cps?
 

hey guys, had my boyfriend put in a autozone lifetime new ects b4 the cps for my 98 sl2.....thanks to you guys that mentioned it,even tho. it does not come up on the obd2 scan.....

like i said the ects was changed like 30k ago! 6-7 years ago, dads pretty sure, guess it was a crappy part cuz since we put it in it has not reoccurred but only drivin 2-3 times a day and we let the car get hot, on and off, so far so good......but i guess well know for sure when we take it out longer than 5miles or so....went back to autozone for the obd2 scan and nothing came up, thot mayb the cps would.....FYI: I DID NOT change the CONNECTOR ECTS, the connector inside looked good and corrosion free with orange oring.

y did saturn/gm not have an important starting sensor like ects not come up on a SCAN????????aaaaaaaaargggh

anyway......forgot to mention that for a while now i realized that were gettin a hi pitch/whistlin soft not loud sound when drivin or idlin the car when it warms up, dont know where its comin from........fan or belt????????

also
old ECTS CONNector, where the two wires went into it a 90degree angle, HAD gooey gluearound the wires goin into the connector (factory glue?) and moved easliy, dont know what it was???should i back tape that up????

OLD ECTS both ends were fine, was expectin to see crack to dirt buildup but we thot it was a waste of money to replace since it looked fine, even the 2 connector prongs IN THE nipple were not corrorded....but so far its been startin up between stops.....

THANKS GUYS!!!!!

Ects didnt work!
 

hey guys, well droveit around today in new york....and it didnt start....aaaarrrrggghhhhh

i am wonder if its that piggy connector now, if u read about my previous post there was a meltin glue around where the wires went into the connector, but inside the connector was clean.

i dont have a resistent meter but will test the connector bc its 45 buks for fault......the other thing i can change is the cps!!!!but it doesnt come up on a scan and should

so frustrated!!! should i be checkin ANY FUSES AND WHERE???

THANKS
any suggestions would help

one suggestion would be to stop posting the same update to your issue in multiple threads. I deleted the other one.

what are the symptoms of your no start now? Dead click? Crank but doesn't fire?
Cranks and fires but won't run? Is the problem only when cold? only when hot?

We can't see your car and can't read your mind

CPS = Computor, expensive a mystery piece and a source of confusion. For some reason a part that must fix things if it is replaced. A piece that largly is reliable if left alone where it lives, is some times coded to work witht he car it came from and because it looks like 10 others that came from 10 different cars must be interchangable.
Where as a fuse can be bought with 4 others in a package for under $2.00, looks like all others, is designed to be replaced and you can throw them in a pocket some where and they will rattle around undamged for years.
And they reason they look like each other is they can be interchanged. Like a bobby pin.
If a wiring connector looks bad it probably is bad. Some one screwed around with an inefective repair because it was broken.
The inability to use a $2.00 meter and know how is legendary, I do not fault the lack of knowledge. You are not alone. But in DIY on a highly complex electronic controlled car, requires trouble shooting and learning how and spending $2.00 at harbor freight to buy one and then finding out if the $200.00 or more part actually needs to be replaced. Instead of listening to some one recommend the most expensive part to replace because they have no clue and some one is looking for an answer.
It used to be that a meter would cost more than the car it was used on, now they are cheaper than a fuse that is probably the problem.
Buy a manual, not only does it tell how things work, but in many cases give a little information on how to determine when they don't.

not ects/cps but starter???
 

hey guys....you wont belive what my boyfriend found out....he was told the autozone terminal only alt/battery tests are garbage! and got the voltimeter test done, standing battery test yield 12.4 which were told was fine, alt. on load , wipers/ac/radio/day time lites were 13.15 give or take 5 points......they wanted to see higher like 14.......isthat ok for our cars???if so that leaves that out.

anyway, i got more info so you guys can have a better read. when it gets stuck its usually after 3/5 stops at 20 mins ea. or total drivin time between gettin stuck is about 40mins....and then u go to start it and clickin happens you wait for it to cool down about 5-ten minutes and it will weakly start.

that bein said, i think i wrote b4 that the starts sounds weak since this problem started as opposed to b4 when they had a good crankin start, thats y i thought it was cps. were goin towards changing the starter?????

what do you think????i alrady changed ects, connecter piggy tail is fine b/c we get a good coolant gauge proper readin and when i pulled it the connector was fine.....wasted money on the ects.

so this leaves me with cps still, which i have heard only is fault when your drivin and at idle or park and it stalls plus it doesnt show up on obd2....so i am thinkn it was the starter all they time???? like to hear what you guys think???? or if u have any other questions.....

also, do u recommend duralast starter 120$ for these cars,life time warranty, delcor is who rebuilds them.....also we got quote for genco for 120 starter and usa 100$ ....all for one year warranty.....want to go for reputable brand need it for at least 30-40k to last!

THANKS!!!!!GUYS

With a load tester on the battery, draw it down to 9.5 volts and see what amps you get. should be somewhere near 200 amps.

hey guys....you wont belive what my boyfriend found out....he was told the autozone terminal only alt/battery tests are garbage! and got the voltimeter test done, standing battery test yield 12.4 which were told was fine, alt. on load , wipers/ac/radio/day time lites were 13.15 give or take 5 points......they wanted to see higher like 14.......isthat ok for our cars???if so that leaves that out.
==============================
The problem you are asking for help on is one of intermittent failure to start.
The test above while may not be a perfect way to check something either from Autozone ( the counter man may have no clue what he or she is doing and doing it wrong) or using a volt meter (the problem with that is that it must be interpretted and if the knowledge is not there to interpret the results, the decision is bogus) is not a test of the starter, but one of the Alternator.
Now an alternator failure sure can cause the Battery to go dead AND not be able to start the car.
But the battery going dead does not magically fix itself.
The reading I would look for is 14.3 volts with the engine running and no electical load turned on.
With everything you can find in the car turned on, and the lights, A/C with the fan on high is pretty much the biggest load there is except if you have an aftermarket radio with killer power, turn it on too. I am not sure 13.15 is a real good number but something smaller than 14.3 would be expected and not be problematic.
The POINT?
This is a test of the alternator and it seems to be working. As long as the battery is charged, the alternator is working and the starter should too.
What is missing? A reading of the Battery at the time the Starter does not work.
Of course it could be a wire connection problem. For the most part hard to see and difficult to troubleshoot with a meter if you have never done it before.
The concept is one of theory and not knowing it is disadvantage. So what is left, visual. If the connections are full of corrosion and look like hell, clean them. That generally takes care of a lot of problems.
The cps = computor. Believe me, the probability of that being the problem is minimal. And if changed incorrectly to the tune of a bunch of bucks can cause more problems than you can possibly imagine. However human nature frequently address the least understood which would be the technology of the CPS so it must be bad.
However the BASICS say, as far as guess work goes.
The starter is giving you problems.
Historically that has been a problematic component on automobiles since the electric starter replace the manual crank some where around 1910.
It might cost money to replace one, it is a guess. You have not proven that there is something better to guess at.
You have a used starter allready. It is in your car. Buying a used starter to replace the one you have is not the smartest solution.
A free used starter is at least worth trying but one that costs almost as much as a new one?
In my opinion, a stupid way of spending money that might be very hard to earn.
As to where to buy one at?
I have no problems with an autoparts store.
I like CarQuest. But then again, I also get a 10% discount and over the years have been a friend of the counter man Jim.
As to the others, my nephew uses RockAuto and on line service but he lives out in the puckerbrush some where in upstate N.Y. and has stuff delivered to him.
He only has one car that runs.
I on the other hand have 5.

If your battery is drawing down to 9.5 volts, then you need to get another battery. While I'm not a mechanic, I've been working on my own cars for nearly 40 years. That battery has a weak cell and will leave you stranded before long. Your alternator appears to be good, just looking at the voltage readings. And Uncljohn is dead on correct when he states that corrosion is a killer. Check your battery cables very closely. Corrosion will creep under the insulation and you won't see but a little bit of it. If you see any at all, just strip the insulation back about half of an inch and check it. Baking soda and water make a great corrosion remover. Vinegar and baking soda work even better. Just be sure to rinse the connections and cables thoroughly and cover any bare wires with electrical tape.

intermittent bad starting
 

thanks unclejn

we have heard to sides and advice of what the standin batt. voltage should be, atuzone told me at 12 minium to get the car started, then i heard atleast 12.8....i am so confused....!!!!

if i get a new battery and find that the alt. , which realized seems on its way out and puttin only 13.15 underload will soon 2 b replaced.....

as far as corrossion, the batt. term are clean, i ddnt check starter connections, but i figure i am gettin clickin sound so voltge is gettin there, the ques. is how much amp.???is gettin there, but will check it today....but i doubt the starter wires/term. are bad......

what i realized is if its a bad batt./alt....how come the car still starts after the car cools down after drivin?????i told everyone when we drive it for a while 30mins or so, make a few stops its sometimes starts, but the more hotter we gett it longer we drive it, and we wan t to start it again after shuttin it off and fails to start........ Point: it cools down for 10mins or so then it starts right up....meanin that it had enuff juice to kick on after all........thats y i am not a big fan replacin for alt./batt idea. if the alt. was failin i should never have gotten the car to start after it cools off or in the morning the first time i start it, it starts fine.....

was i clear?let me know what you think, and ill chk corression at the starter.....i wish there was a way we can just check the starter motor itself. independently. autzone does that batt/alt./starter diode check with electronic box, so i am gonna let them check it again??? what else can i do....

thanks for clearin up the CPS is not at fault, i agree w u there, wish it was, cheap and easy fix, glad isaved somemoney there not buyin one. Thanks

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the ignition control module. I've had modules on other cars start to go bad and due to the thermodynamics of the materials and circuitry, cause intermittent starting problems. Seems that when they'd get hot, a connection would expand and lose contact. After it cooled off some, it would contract and reconnect. Now, I don't recommend purchasing one on a maybe, but see if your local AZ or Advance can test it for you if you bring it in. Back years ago, they could check certain styles, but I haven't had to do that since about 1994, so I don't know if the still offer that service or not.

alternator vs. starter??
 

well hey guys we did some more testing and research. internet shows that batterty needs 12.4 and up for optimum starting. alternator as uncle jn and other confirmed 13.8and up....i am at 13.1-13.2....

my shade tree mechanic thinks when i have the air on and other things the alternator is playin catchup and there fore not putting the battery up to par. so when i go to start it after drivin it the batt. is depleted to the point just enuff. that it duznt send enuff amps to the starter!!!to spin flywheel..... when it duz. start, its b/c the battery /alternator cools down and regains amps and then it duz let me start it. he said it will get worse.....duz this make sense???
or is it still the starter motor/silonoid goin or could it be both???

he told me to take the belt off tomm. and wiggle the alt. pulley wheel and check for drag i spin the alt. pulley, there should be drag and no free wheel spining as that will show the alt. has no pull and bearins are shot.

well today drivin and testin it again, i heard a chirpin bearin should comin from the alt/steerin side of the pulleys near the firewall....so i figure its the alt.???steerin is fine so far.....no more when i do the test....

also, FYI please note....from the rear tire, gettin that whistlin hi pitch after the car is drivien for at least 20mins or warmed up......i heard its the fuel pump , they said the bearins are wearing, on the way out. he said prob. from the weak alt. not givin enuff current back so the pump had towork harder....who knows at this point????

when i rev the car the whistlin does not get louder. he duznt think it has anythin to do with the problem i have with the intermittent startin rite now but could be a problem in future.


still confused about either starter or alt. at this point.........but just b/c the alt. is goin bad it duznt rule out that starter is good either, it seems they work 2gether.

....i am in new york, the car has 70k, powertrain is great, new tires and drives great except for these annoyin problems. sunrroof, leather, foglights,auto sl2....were thinkin about puttin it up for sale????

Dead batteries do not magically become undead.
Bad alternators do not affect how a car starts unless the battery is dead because the alternator is dead
Alternators that are dead? Are well dead.
They do not magically start to work again.
Starter motors though? like any motor can fail when they get hot and work when they are cool.
Autozone offers a service of checking things. That is not unusual, auto parts stores offer that same service for years and years and it is only as good as:
1. the equipment that does the checking
2. The person who is doing the checking.
Sorry, for the most part places like Autozone do not have the best mechanical diagnostic people in the world working for them. So information must be taken with a grain of salt.
If you personally can not do any better and you do not know anyone that can do any better than you are somewhat depending on others to GUESS what is wrong and go with it.
My guess based on the information you have given which to some extent reflects the fact you have no idea at all what you are talking about is the starter is having some intermittent problems. A characteristic of a Starter quite frankly and that is my guess.
What you do with it is your decision. No matter what is done, it is gonna cost you money.
Right now based on YOUR evaluation of what a new starter cost is gonna be, it looks like it is gonna cost you $120.00 from some place called Delcor which I have never heard of and really don't care if I have or not.
As to lasting 30 or 40K? I have 7 cars at the moment and most of them have functional starters. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and are 40+ years old.
I buy my parts from an auto parts store called CarQuest. The come in boxes marked CarQuest. They work and that makes me happy.
Get a second opinion as to the cost of the starter.
If you only want one that may last 30 to 40k I am sure you can get a cheap one some where other wise find out what a starter costs from some place else.
As to what is wrong? I'm not there, can't see, touch or smell and frankly the information you are passing on is highly questionable and while I am sure you are doing your best, your best is not good enough. That leads to a guess as to why it won't start.
Mine is the starter is bad.

starter/alternator??
 

hey guys.....the alt. sounded a little louder, chirpin,squeal sound when i gave it gas, but now at idle you hear bearin play....

i tried to take belt off, but my open wrench 14m was to short and could find a bar to leverage......is the belt possible to take it off, thru the wheel well cover off???with a socket ratchet thru the wheel well cover???or gonna need a breaker bar??

...........the reason y i want to check the the pulley of the alt. and see if theres drag, FYI, i got anaother voltmeter
test on it, this time i put a/c, wipers, radio, brights on, with load the alt was 12.9!!!!, 12.74 batt with no loads on......the

new noise from the alt. that i heard from begining of my tests has gotten louder and def. sounds like its coming from the alt. and now this test sure proves it, the last alt. test i got 2 days ago under load was 13.18 and has gotten worse....soon i wouldnt b able to start it but batt. is still strong, i am drivin if i have 2 w/o loads on......

this could b contributing to the intermittment problem as between starts when the car gets hot and we drive with the a/c on and other loads it doesnt have enuff to start till it cools down.........or ITS A DOUBLE WHAMMY!!!! both parts have to b changed regardless.......but i am startin w/the alt........and hopin that was it and the starters o.k.

i read posts on the site where they had startin problems and changed alt, starter, batt. rear seats.lol......to finally get it fixed when it was only one thing and dont want to b like them.....wont know about starter till the alt. gets fixed b/c facts are facts and the alt. has shown bad numbers on the test and makes these noises so have to go from there.

btw, i tried shoppin for a long open end wrench for belt removal autozone duznt has one, where can i find one, how much?? hard to find short pipe big enuff to fit openend wrench inside it as a braker bar, have any ideas??

still appreciate you guys help!, or if theres anythin else let me know

Recent infromation also indicates your alternator is ALSO starting to go into a failure mode. This now indicates two problems.
Intermittent starting
and and alternator problem.
If memory serves at the moment, you will find that you have to take the wheel off and go through the fenderwell to remove the starter.
To remove the Serpentine Belt tension you have to take the tension off of the idler which is spring loaded.
You will most likely need a tool designed to do that and they can be rented from your AutoZone parts place.
As it appears that you now have two problems.
Internittent failure to start
and
the need to replace the alternator
you might as well do both of them at the same time. Save yourself a lot of work.
A dead battery because the alternator does not work is
DEAD
and does not magically become un-dead
there for if your car does not start because the alternator is defective and the battery is now dead, will not start untill the battery is charged or replaced.
Be safe, hopefully you have a good jack and some jack stands to hold the car up safely while you work on it.

whoa nelly!!!
 

ok if Alt. is making noise it's gotta get replaced , you could test it yourself by starting the car then removing one of the battery cables, if car continues running your Alt. is working , if car dies your Alt. is bad.

your tensioner pulley will have a spot on it for your ratchet and shouldn't be so tuff that you need any kind of breaker bar. pull tensioner until you have slack in your belt and pull it off..... but remember the way it winds through cause your gonna have to put it back on too!

I wouldn't bother removing Alt. pulley unless your going to buy an alt. re-build kit (sometimes available) but it can be a pain, just buy a re-manufactured or hit the junk yard.

your battery will probably be fine.

thanks
 

we decided to put things on hold b4 any auto surgery on the car....we put the car which is in great powertrain shape at only 70k! on craigslist to see if we get buyers this week and make a decision.....what do u think we can get for it? leather, fog lights, roof, 98 sl2???


also, lookin at a lease for only 150mo. at honda, with 3k down,...u guyz think would they take the saturn for the downpayment cuz we can afford 150mo. rite now.???

cant find a short bar to go over small 14m wrench rite now, but heard i can access the belt with wheel well off with rachet easy.....but i still find one if i decide to keep car and we get stuck and need to replace belt on the road y shld i take tire off to do it, its so frustratin this car....im p@#$@$d off rite now!!! I SHLD be it has only 70k! GM BANKRUPT RIP! thats y i want to lease JAP CRAP!

BUT thanks w/all ur diagnosis help, i agree w uncle that its a double whammy, alt. is gettin worse and the intermittent prob. was mostly starter.....as least this discussion proved that its always NOT THE CPS OR ECTS cuz i chanced the ects and wasted money and time for didlysquat!! so it pays to totally diagnosis the car and not go for wasteful sensor parts!!!!

anytoher suggestions would b appreciated . SATURN RIP! tks.

alternator removed
 

hey guys....forget the lease...hehehe they want to much for jap crap...GM till i die.

quik ques.....what is that white plastic sensor right next to cps , it has one wire come out of the end of it. the wire is on real tite and has no slack?
is that a transmssion sensor??? what is it do?

well listen to this my boyfriend put in alt. from autozne, he knows this intermittment start problem could be either both alt/starter- double whammy....like our previous diagnosis and post suggest!

we brot the alt. back to test since it was in, the contraption they use showd voltage of 12.7 w load, wipers,a/c, lights, radio.....omg! the rep. said the regulator was bad, we told him we jsut bot it from you guys!!! r u kiddin? two hours of labor for this.......

we went to a basic voltmeter friend who put it on under load, it was shooting 13.7 with load!!!!, then i put the wipers on it and voltmeter kept movin up and down like it couldnt read it, and it came up w 12.9!!!were so confused, he now thinks that theres some electrical problem with the car.

so we drive to anther place wthere he had a print out voltimeter heavey duty tool. the cars pretty hot rite now w all these tests....and starting fine to bad starts.he duz a huge test similar to autozone s machine and he swears by it....he comes up with load alt. test at 13.78 and printed it out, with outload 13!!!......the machine also checked good starter voltage/amp output...go figure!

after the tests....we let the cool down, and guess what it didnt start!! he ran the machine again on it...and couldnt come to a conclusion but put his ear as close to the manifold to listen to silonoid and had me start and restart. his conclusion is the starter is the problem and was emabarrased his exp. test machine couldnt find out! he also advised me to ride w/o daytime running lites, and pulled the drl relay, since we dont need and it could sap juice,even tho. he approved the alt.test....but the previous two tests said no.

he said he trusts autozone parts and they test everythin b4 sellin. i shouldv gotten a bench test done on it b4 i walked out with it!!! is he rite??

i still have the core and return it.
i never seen inconsistent voltimeter tests....is there a fuseable link/electric problem???? all the connectors are clean and tite!

i dont know who to believe guys, do we return the alt. since we have the core and just go with a really good rebuilder???

or just leave the old altnertor in previously and return alt.@atozone and just buy starter since NOW we know its the problem like UNCLEJN suggest and other people.?? i never had bad alt. problems b4, lites never dimmed just got inconsistent voltimeter testin b4, the number did not improve only once in 3 tests!!!, so mayb it was never bad to begin with????

ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULDBE APPRECIATED!!!

nd your help asap!

Depending on the management at Autozone, you may not be able to return the alternator you purchased once it has been installed. I used to work for them and their policy was no returns on electrical parts if they'd been installed. I never paid any attention to that because I didn't think it was worth losing a customer over something like a forty dollar part. Just take it back and tell them that is not the problem and that you want to use the refunded money to purchase a starter. That should let them know that you want to do business with them. Put your old alternator back on and get another starter and happy motoring.

As to the part, you are probably stuck with store polocy as to how they deal with electrical parts. That is the problem with DIY, if you make the wrong decision it is yours, not some one elses. Think of it this way, you can screw things up cheaper than some one else.
As to the starter.
The problem with an intermittent problem is if the problem is not there and you test for it, you won't find it.
Thus you have to work with probability.
Shade tree diagnostices have variabls, you got caught up in the variables. That happens, but the probability said the starter was bad.
Your decion was to buy and alternator.
You can ask to return it, but you are probably stuck with it.
As to a lease?
You own your Saturn and no matter what happens, fixing it is cheaper than a lease no matter what.
And if you can't afford to fix it or pay for a lease, '
you still own your Saturn, at the end of a lease, you own nothin.

starter
 

thanks guys......the tech. said dont bring back old alternator, since its original, dont know for sure but prob., so he s thinkin is you get a new alternator with a starter and we mite need a new alternator so wy do the labor to remove it........the older starter did demostrate poor testing from 13.2 to 12.9....very inconsistent testin didnt help, but it was low numbers thats y i went with that first, plus no flickerin lites so y take the chance??

i should have just bench tested the alt. b4 leavin the store, they test in front of you!! right??

so now we have to put in the starter and hopefully it works....i still dont know y a starter would be it, b/c we drive it till it gets very hot and start only one time, so its wierd the heat from the engine must fry the motor. cuz if u think about it, u only use the starter once? isnt not like its spinin all the time.....

so wishme luck and well testit and keep it posted, hope this is it, what else can it be?

also DRL, is it ok to remove relay drl, dont want the lites on, its a waste! hope thats not a problem?

thanks!!