Saturn S Series Sedan SL, SL1, and SL2

Couple of issues-98 Saturn Sl2

  #41  
Old 10-02-2013, 05:16 AM
uncljohn's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peoria AZ
Posts: 1,912
Default

Using high performance anything on a 20 something year old car with 250,000 miles on the clock is pretty much a waste of money. Something that is high performance is generally matched to other parts that are high performance in order to derive the most benefit from them.
As Kieth has pointed out the method the Saturn uses to generate the spark AND monitor it in order to do two things, be a condition of other functions and to generate error codes is pretty much unique to the S series Saturns. I do not know if other cars use that particular configuration or not, anything I own doesn't. The uniqueness of the ignition system makes it very touchy as to how and why some things work or not.
The factory recommended spark plugs set correctly for the gap seem to be the best spark plug for the car. While I personally am a fan of Champion dating way back and use them exclusively on all my cars including the Saturn, for the Saturn the ones I use are not platinum or any other long life spark plug as the tip design of those types of plugs are different than the regular Champion or the Bosh plugs (I think that is recommended) and that will affect the shape and configuration of the spark generated which can fool the sensing circuit used to generate error code.
Sorry whether I like a platinum plug or not and can argue for the use of one for life expectations, on the Saturn I do not recommend the used of them. Specially if you are getting any kind of an error code related to ignition problems such as one that indicates random miss-fire.
I also have as reference material the professional mechanics version of Mitchel's diagnostics that I am able to tap to translate the error code's into some form of action plan. But with out the error codes to list, there is no way to use this information.
And as far as I am concerned, the Saturn's level of OBD-I logic is a bit hard to actually get error codes as many of the available scan tools today do not recognize it and will not read it out. As I have found out recently while looking for something to buy that is both obd-1 and obd-II. While there are many adequate scan tools available the WILL NOT read the Saturn logic. I have been lucky enough to obtain a professional level scan tool that was excess baggage at a shop I know that has been updated through the late 1900's and as mine is a 1994 I can now read the codes correctly. I doubt I will update it any further as to do so is a 4 digit figure per year of up dates. Of course that does not do you any good, but it sure helps me out a lot.
In any case, I would purchase the regular recommended spark plugs and everyday run of the mill spark plug wires as replacement parts for the Saturn. At least the S series as they exist.
And if you can find something to read codes, publish the codes. The complexity of this car and pretty much anything made from about 1990 on is enough where guessing as to what will fix it will lead to a lot of money spent not fixing things.
 
  #42  
Old 10-02-2013, 06:56 AM
Judobrad's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 32
Default

Ok, went and got the diagnostic again. Code is P0341. changed the wires and plugs, gapped correctly, everything per the car requirements, still giving me the same issues. Could it be the crankshaft sensor? I have 0 issues starting the car, and none whatsoever when it idles. Just issues on hills, gaining speed, standard acceleration stuff.
 
  #43  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:01 AM
Judobrad's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 32
Default

Just realized in everything I did, that I did no maintenance to the coil tower. Did not clean it, etc. Should I start with cleaning the 1/4 coil tower or just replace it?
 
  #44  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:47 AM
Rubehayseed's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Anniston, AL
Posts: 4,895
Default

Check it for corrosion and clean it first. Might save you a few bucks. Have you checked for a clogged cat con or muffler? I'm not going to go back through every post, but those symptoms sure sound like a clogged exhaust to me. Cat con breaks down and gets stopped up and can even clog the muffler when it comes apart.
 
  #45  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:15 AM
Judobrad's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 32
Default

I have not checked for a clogged cat yet. I am still working on correcting the cam code Im getting, however if I do everything to correct that and still have issues, that will be my next step.
Curious if the P0341 is being thrown due to possibly a dirty or bad coil tower, shouldnt this be affecting my car during ignition? I have no issues whatsover starting the car, and again, when it is in idle it will sit there and run smooth as can be. But when I start driving, it just fails to have good power, acceleration, but if I slam down on the gas, itll take off like a bat out of hell, then cruise fine, but as soon as I get to a hill or need to speed up, the issue comes back. I will try taking the coil off and cleaning it when I get home and see if that helps.
 
  #46  
Old 10-02-2013, 03:53 PM
keith's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 435
Default

P0341 means that the computer is seeing more than one CMP pulse for every two revolutions of the crankshaft. In other words it is seeing a CMP pulse everytime the coil fires.

The causes are:

No voltage on the brown/white wire to the Electronic Ignition Module (EIM). Should be 5VDC +/- 1VDC

More than 15k Ohms on #4 secondary ignition (spark plug and spark plug wire)

Less than 1.5k Ohms on the #1 secondary ignition.

Corrosion in the #4 coil tower. (should cause intermittent misfire)

Crack in the #1 coil tower, arc to ground. (should cause misfire)

Defect in EIM.

Since you don't have a dedicated Saturn Scan tool, the first step is to disconnect the little plug under the EIM, turn the ignition to run (don't try to start) and look for 4-6 volts on pin D (brown/white wire). If it is not present, then check the wire bundle for any short to ground.

This wire bundle runs right up against a metal plate attached to the back of the engine/transmission interface. I would look here for the short. If no short, the problem could be in the PCM. If you don't see one, I would unplug J1 (ignition off) of the computer and then use an ohm meter to check pin D to ground. If no ground, hook up the computer and repeat the test for 5 volts. you may have inadvertently removed the short to ground while moving the wires around.

If no 5 volts and no short to ground, the wire is either broken or the PCM is bad. Find the brown/white wire at J1, pin 26 and check for continuity to pin D.

If the 5 VDC is there, then remove the 1-4 coil pack and inspect it. Look for corrosion and cracks in the coil tower. We call this a coil, but in modern ignition systems, it is actually a type of transformer called an autotransformer. Autotransformer means that the primary and secondary coils share a common connection to ground, it has nothing to do with the term automobile. The transformer providing voltage to your house is most likely an autotransformer.

Anyway if there is any evidence of carbon tracking on the towers, it could be due to a crack or it could have come from a dried out boot on the old ignition wires. after cleaning the coil towers, butter them up good with a dielectric grease. You can get that in little packs at the parts store, get four and butter both ends of the spark plug wires, coil towers and ceramic parts of the spark plug. Do not worry about getting it on the conduction parts, this grease has the property of becoming conductive in a thin film application. You can coat the conducting surfaces of your battery terminals and the battery will work just fine. But it insulates in thick film.

Then clear the code and try again. If the code comes back, the EIM is bad and will need to be replaced. Can you say Pick and Pull?
 

Last edited by keith; 10-02-2013 at 03:56 PM.
  #47  
Old 10-03-2013, 08:00 AM
Judobrad's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 32
Default

Ok, so heres what I did and what I found. Pictures attached.

Took the EIM off. Found it to be filthy. Both on the coil packs as well as the actual connection where the EIM meets the engine. Lots of oil,etc. After I got them off, I wiped them down, then scrubbed the necessary metal connections with a wire brush. Got them as clean as I could, reinstalled.

Service Engine Light has completely disappeared, so thats a plus. The con? Still getting some acceleration issues. I am torn on saying whether or not its running a little better. My wife thinks it is. I like to say that it feels SLIGHTLY easier to accelerate but may be saying that cause I know Ive cleaned the dirty components.

Heres what I found after driving all the way to work this morning with no radio, just listening to the car and how it acts. If Im cruising at say 55mph, and I barely push on the gas, I get little to nothing in acceleration. When I push the pedal half way down, sometimes it accelerates normally, sometimes the car shakes lightly, as if it was having a hard time receiving fuel(Thats an example of the feel, not necessarily what I think is happening.) and then when I push the pedal all the way down, the car revs up and takes off with no issues.

Kind of at a stuck point here. Maybe need a new EIM? Check Cat? Any other thoughts? Really appreciate everyones help here, amazing how much I have learned about this car while on this forum.

Edit-At this point Im almost positive its the Cat. It has all the symptoms of it. Whats the best way to check this on a Saturn before going in and getting it replaced?

Edit2-Side note, I replaced me ECTS a month ago while replacing my water pump and thermostat. It was cracked, and replaced with one from O'Reillys, not one from the dealership. Should I have gotten a real replacement part for this instead of a plastic one from the auto store?
Name:  f2402b2a-7324-4ab3-8d54-af4900c1c868_zps50ea719a.jpg
Views: 59
Size:  143.9 KB
Name:  358970fe-6b51-451f-98de-7fa147373f3a_zps71e4c450.jpg
Views: 57
Size:  133.5 KB
Name:  e6c175ac-c9fb-4113-a739-f34aa58d6a8e_zpsf82afa8a.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  145.0 KB
Name:  796c21ee-7f28-4430-80d7-e412562bd34b_zpsbcd7b01a.jpg
Views: 74
Size:  123.6 KB
 

Last edited by Judobrad; 10-03-2013 at 08:14 AM.
  #48  
Old 10-03-2013, 08:44 AM
uncljohn's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peoria AZ
Posts: 1,912
Default

Just to recap the P0341, a cylinder detect signal error (too many pulses.) It is a direct monitor of cylinder #4 and comparison of the signal received there both in amplitude and polarity based on the signal received from cylinder number 1 and sensed as stated from the capacitive pick up plates located under the cylinder number 4 and 1 coils. The polarity checked of the pulses at this time can be determined to insure some form of Noise detection problems that is they come at the right sequence and polarity as compared to the double pulse received from the CKP sensor, spark and fuel timing can be synchronized.
It makes sense that if these plates are impacted with engine crud that they could cause a problem. So it also makes sense that cleaning things up would improve the capability of receiving the proper signals.
However it does point at a possible cam sensor problem as it is used to compare things to do determine proper timing.
The diagnostics pretty much depend on the use of the scan tool for further testing. But that implies the capability of the scan tool to interface with the logic as used on the Saturn and that pretty much says a Saturn factory tool is implied as needed.
Oh well,few people have that capability.

As to checking the catalytic converter for problems? In general if it is plugged the engine will run some what doggy and there will be a tendency to indicate that it is running Hot. And I can pretty much confirm that as those are symptoms I have seen when a converter gets plugged. Also on the Saturn if it is cumming apart you may hear a noise like some one throwing a hand full of pea gravel somewhere under the car. I do not know a good way to inspect a catalytic converter short of removing it from the exhaust and looking into it. It seems to me one end of the converter is easily removed. Easily being an operative. Rust has a tendency alter the definition. Also included if the converter has come apart completely, then all of the converter junk has probably been blown into the exhaust system and probably ended up plugging the muffler.
The one on mine came apart, the front half anyway and it was a tad doggy the car tried to run a bit hot. I did not figure it out for sure until the converter was removed.
 
  #49  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:39 AM
uncljohn's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peoria AZ
Posts: 1,912
Default

It is hard do diagnose a performance problem in a forum format on a car that is heavily dependent on it's electronics to run well. And it is a matter of interpretation too, as to what performance is.
If for all practical purposes, your car runs "well" but down on power that has tendency to be something unrelated to adjustments to the engine as they are now controlled by the computer that runs things. Leaving things like a plugged catalytic converter accompanied with running hot or warm anyways.
The electronics rarely have a failure mode that says it runs well followed by it runs crappy and have that cycle repeated.
The ETC has had a history of causing problems like that but in general ETC's do not cause that type of problem. At least on other cars.
The lack of a proper diagnostic scanner to separate out individual problems and go after them one at a time is another hindrance.
Being able to at least read the codes is a major benefit.
Physical things like vacuum leaks is a problem and the best I can say here is a can of WD40 sprayed around at suspected locations while the engine is running thus causing a change in operation due to sucking the stuff in through a vacuum leak is a classic diagnostic tool.
Your engine cleaning mode is important in that dirt and grim can cause problems too. Most of the sensors have a diagnostic error code that will flag up if the readings come out out of tolerance for the computer that runs things.
The P0341 is in part depending on the Cam sensor to be working correctly in order for the spark timing to be evaluate correctly.
Lacking any other well defined failure mode I guess if the car was mine and i was hopelessly lost and the cam sensor was not hard to replace and I could afford a guess in the dark, I would be inclined to change it too.
Sorry, I just don't know what else to recommend and I hate to make a wild guess based on the information to date and at this time, a guess is all it would be. It is problems of this nature that influenced me to buy a pressure sensing gauge to diagnose fuel pressure at the Fuel Injection. And I have used it rather frequently for intermittent performance problems as fuel presssure is critical on the F.I. engines. In general a fuel pump going out has a tendency to fail intermittently as it approaches the end of it's life. Ive probably gone through about 6 fuel pumps on cars in the last 10 years, all of which caused problems similar to what you are describing. But it is far easier to measure fuel pressure that it is to change a pump by guessing and discovering it fixed nothing.
 

Last edited by uncljohn; 10-03-2013 at 09:48 AM.
  #50  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:29 AM
keith's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 435
Default

I don't think it is the cat. If the cat was getting clogged up, you would not have that burst of power at full throttle, in fact that is when things would bog down due to a clogged cat.

If the SES light stays off and you no longer have a P0341 code, then the issue could be due to a slow responding front O2 sensor, but I think you said that you already replaced that.

Next question, when fully warmed up, what is the idle speed. If it is over 950, then I would look for a vacuum leak around the intake manifold, particularly the #1 cylinder. This is a problem with the SL1 engines, I don't know if it affects the SL2 engines but it could be worth looking into.

If the idle is smooth and around 750 and you get good WOT acceleration, I think the next step would be to run a bottle or two of Tecron through the system. If that doesn't work and the SES still does not come on. you might be a candidate for a fuel system flush (AKA wallet flush). These are usually an upsell at many garages when you come in for the cheap oil change special and are generally unneeded, hence the AKA, but once in a while, they actually are necessary and when needed, they do work.

Be sure that if you get a fuel system flush, that they actually hook up the proper machine to the fuel rail and not just dump a can of Tecron in the gas tank and charge you $150. Quickie oil change places are bad about that, as are some unscrupulous garages.

I should add to that the P0341 is probably not the cause of the issues you feel. Generally a P0341 has little or no affect on performance at all. It is possible that the performance issue might clear itself up on its own as the computer gets used to the repair you have done.
 

Last edited by keith; 10-03-2013 at 11:33 AM.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Couple of issues-98 Saturn Sl2



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 PM.