A few weeks back I had some work done on my Saturn by my mechanic (new rings and valves). After driving it home on a Friday, I decided to take it for a spin on Sunday to test it out before using it on my M-F commute. It ran great at first but after cruising at ~55mph for 5 or 6 miles on the highway it began to have a very slight repetitive hesitation. Upon turning around it died as soon as the rpms got around idle (in gear). It kept doing that at every slow turn or stop sign. I took it back to my mechanic thinking maybe there was a big vacuum leak somewhere on the intake he didn't seal up properly. He fixed it that day and informed me the EGR valve had some junk in it.

Fast forward to yesterday on my way home from work...it has run fine since and I am climbing a steep hill in 3rd at around 3k rpm. Shortly after leveling out at the top I get behind a rather slow driver for a few miles. I am in 4th and my rpm's are under 2k. I then begin to get that same hesitation feeling as mentioned before and I get the same symptom as before and die at the first stop I encounter. I start it up and have to keep it reved in order to take back off. Knowing that the EGR valve is typically closed at lower rpm's i put it in drive 3 and cruise for a few miles in the upper 2k rpms hoping the crud is blown out. It works and I make it home fine going through a few more stops and turns with no problems at idle speeds.

Fast forward once more to this morning and I get the symptoms again. I make it to the interstate where I cruise at 75 mph at about 3200 rpm for about 25 miles and it seems to have corrected itself once I get off the exit and promptly park.

So does the way it is acting up for me indicate anything in particular? Is this a case where just cleaning the EGR really well may correct it or does it just need to be replaced? Or could the problem be that there is just too much carbon built up in the exhaust port which feeds the EGR valve and even a new one will keep getting clogged until the problem upstream is corrected? In the meantime I may throw in the approriate tools and try the Richpin method and cut out a coke can gasket to stop it up in the event it wont clear itself and I am going to have to go through some stop and go traffic.

 

Don't know how many miles are on your car. Pls add to sig ASAP. Thank you.

If you just got new compression and oil control rings and had a valve job done, I assume it was low on compression and burning oil.

SES light on? Codes (Pxxxx)?

The EGR itself may be sticking during decel. Implication: Clean it thoroughly w carb cleaner without damaging the center pintle, which should move freely.

To clean out the passage leading to it which is likely coated with carbon, take the egr off and start the car and rev for about 10 seconds. Loud as hell but should blow out any big stuff. Can clean those ports w carb cleaner as well. If car was a big oil burner, that port is probably pretty gross.

Sometimes the EGR's electronics will fail, but that is usually accompanied by an SES code.

Overall, sounds to me like the EGR is sticking

 

Miles are approximately 192K.

Correct, it was a big oil burner and I lost all compression in one cylinder due to a burnt valve which caused me to go ahead and opt for new rings while the valve job was being performed.

It did throw code P1404. I checked it and cleared it before I left work yesterday. I made it all the way home and all the way back into work today though without any problems.

I can clean/inspect the EGR valve this weekend and see how nasty it is. I can also clean/inspect the exhaust port. I'll provide an update then unless that code indicates that problem may be something else.

 

per 1404 code the pcm is testing to see if is closing all the way when it is supposed to, and it's not.

from P1404 Saturn Exhaust Gas Recirculation Closed Position Performance OBDII Engine Light Trouble Code | Engine-Codes.com

P1404 Saturn - Exhaust Gas Recirculation Closed Position Performance




Possible causes

- Faulty Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve
- Carbon blockage of the pintle

Tech Notes

On some models, there is a service bulletin for the P1404 code that suggest reprogramming the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) to repair the problem.

When is the code detected?

While monitoring the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve pintle position the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) detected the closed position sensor voltage higher than the learned closed position voltage.

Possible symptoms

- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)

P1404 Saturn Description

The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) determines that the EGR valve is stuck open if the actual Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) position and the learned closed EGR position vary by more than a predetermined value. The PCM tests for a stuck valve when the desired EGR position is at 0%. The PCM commands the EGR valve to 100% during certain driving conditions in order to clear a possible restriction from the EGR valve if the PCM determines that the valve is stuck open. The PCM retests for a stuck valve when the desired EGR position returns to 0%. A failure timer increments if the stuck EGR valve condition is still present. This DTC sets when the timer reaches a predetermined value.

Clean the hell out of that valve but don't damage the pintle or it's toast. 192K + bad oil burning ? Surprised you did not have troubles sooner. You may be able to save it, maybe not.

The service bulletin mentioned above relates to a situation owners were having where the pcm would throw a 1404, they'd try to clean, no luck--1404 again. Then they would replace egr, clear the code, and still get 1404 with a brand new EGR. Ultimately it came down to having to have the PC "re learn" the expected open and closed sensor voltages in order to stop throwing the code---which would fail you in an emissions inspection even though the new valve was functioning just fine.

So clean this one well. If it doesn't work out, replacement time. 192K out of an oil burning S series EGR is more than respectable. You've gotten your money's worth.

 

Yes, I agree. And thanks for looking up that code for me.

 

Update:

As soon as I got off the interstate on my way home from work yesterday the symptoms reappeared. I tried putting it in D3 and driving it hard a in a few short spurts to get the rpms up and try to clear any deposits stuck in there but it didn't work this time. After barely making it home, I removed the EGR valve and saw a HUGE chunk of carbon blocking the pindle from closing. It was probably 1/8" in diameter.

Then I started the car with it still removed and let it "idle" for about 15 seconds. With me not giving it any gas it was hitting the rev limiter on its own at just a little over 4k rpms. It blew out some black soot and a few chunks. I didn't have time to clean the EGR valve but I did make an aluminum gasket to block off the valve and put it along with tools I used in the car in case it happens again.

I think the problem is the exhaust port feeding the valve rather than the valve itself. The valve was dirty but could easily be cleaned and the pindle moved freely as it should. I'll give the EGR valve a true cleaning soon as well as clean the exhaust port and give another update.

 

chunks a flyin' is a good thing; chunks lodging in your EGR hanging up the pintle is not. Never had anyone report they actually caught a carbon ***** that big.

well, you now know what's ahead of you.

Please do come back and update us on your port cleaning procedure -- provide enough detail and we can sticky it......

 

I had a similar problem but instead of carb cleaner, I used seafoam. I filled the egr valve full of seafoam and let it sit overnight, then cleaned it out with carb cleaner. I also sprayed seafoam into the passageways in the manifold and let it sit. The seafoam does not evaporate as fast as carb cleaner, it clings for awhile

 

I'll keep that in mind Keith. I'm a big fan of using Seafoam on my outboard. It really does wonders when you do a de-carb with it.

 

Thanks keith!.