I shall watch this thread.


I do not know the S-cars like I do the Ions, so I am of no help.


But I would like for everyone to calm down, and take a deep breath, and lets re-think what is going on.


Vulgar language will not be tolerated, nor will disrespect/attitudes. I get it, we are all car people, and not always going to see eye to eye. No reason to get internet muscles over it.


Here is what I would do from what was posted-


You already did the plugs, wires, and air filter. Good.


From there I would probably clean the throttle body and run some fuel injection cleaner. Wouldn't hurt to check/change the fuel filter, as well. You said you were doing that anyway.

 

Based on information given, that of:
191,000 miles
No codes generated
and a generalized bucking or misfiring at 70 mph
and a few primary ignition parts changed
what kind of mentality would you expect?
It is an old car, driven hard with an unknown problem.
My first question would have to be how was it that you determined no codes were given?
There are some pretty significant sampling circuits for lack of a fire or a miss-fire that should have given a code if one took place.
What is the fuel pressure as measured?
If the fuel pump is on it's way out, this could give a problem.
A fuel filter failure is not all that hard to diagnose, granted it can be assumed that if it failed enough to cause the car to have a problem the engine should generally quit, however that back yard method of checking it for a problem is to remove it and try to blow through it, and if you can't or find it hard to do so, it is in a failure mode.
The part suggested to replace, whether it is obvious or not, but it was justified as causing almost everything to happen has a track record of being problematic.
What fuel are u using? If you are using E85 it has a high alcohol content which the parts of the fuel control on your car are not going to like.
I'd have to say a little more information about what is going on is important to have in order to give a credible guess as to what might be a problem.

 

To All:

I'd like to apologize for my outbursts at the beginning of this thread -- I should have turned the other way like I've almost always done.

But about 2 weeks ago, shortly after BigShoes joined, I exchanged a few PMs with him. I repeatedly encouraged him to post about this very issue and pointed out a true miss on s cars codes in about 1 second, so it would likely require some deeper digging than plugs or wires, etc. Big Shoes declined to post at that time. His ride, his prerogative. All in good time.

Finally he posts about the issue, asking for advice.
I ask a simple question to get more info, and advise on repl parts sourcing if needed.

In return, I get a post that implies I'm somehow suggesting he shotgun parts to solve the problem (not looking for that kind of mentality); to me an odd and arrogant response from someone seeking advice from a forum full of knowledgeable people. I decide to step away.

But then the vulgarity of a teenager.
I could not let it stand. Sadly, I took the bait.

None of it had anything to do with being right or wrong.
It had to do with arrogance and figuratively spitting at someone who's trying to help you.

I take kindly to neither, especially from newcomers.

Some of Big Shoes' post may not have been meant to be sarcastic, but I interpreted it as such, further fueling my outburst.

In conclusion, I'm sorry this thread descended as it did. It's been righted by the rest of you (as these things always are). Thank you.
________________

Hey Big Shoes -- status?

And please attend to your signature -- forum reg, not something I'm making up. Check the PM from 12/24.

 

Status is the ECTS was changed by the previous owner and there isnt any green slime inside the plug.

All of this was because i didnt understand why it would cause the problem. This blew way out of proportion. YOU took my Shotgun statement personally and then went on what you called an "outburst". But as you mentioned the ECTS goes bad I checked and saw that yes all mid 2001 and older had the issue with the plastic tip sensor which is why i said that if it hadnt been addressed then it should be taken care of. But you took that as sarcasm and further fueing your outburst more.

You want to say my posts were arrogant and spitting in your face? Vulgarity of a teenager? Youre kidding right?

Updated my sig Per your request also

 

Hey Big Shoes, I'm just wondering if you got another ECTS from a Saturn friendly GM dealer like I had to do? The one I got kind of pissed me off as the first thing I see on the package was "made in china". But, I checked it out and it did have the brass tip. I also got a new pig tail and soldered and used heat shrink on the splice. My issues were cleared. On the pig tail connector, that damn thing is a squeeze connector and mine was cracked. If you didn't replace the pig tail and are still having issues, check that thing. Kind of a sorry design, in my opinion. I hope this helps and kind of gets us all back on track.

 

Big Shoes,

We've had newcomers post things like "don't give me your best guess; I came here for real answers so don't waste my time guessing at it.". To me that is smug arrogance. You did not say those exact words, but after dealing with that kind of crap for 10 years, one grows tired of it coming from those new to the forum. Like I said, the fact that we had previously discussed posting the problem, only to have you post it, respond with what I felt was sarcastic arrogance is what set me off. I make mistakes. The age old problem with trying to interpret written text without hearing the voice that it came from.

As for sarcasm and language, I'm probably the most sarcastic one on this forum. As long as the language is not directed AT a user, nobody has a problem with it. Your comment was directed at someone, which pretty much never happens around here. That's another reason I spazzed out.

I'm not sitting here on some high horse claiming perfection, purity and whatever other terms you wanna throw in. But we don't toss around foully intended language like that at other users. We take pot shots at each other all the time, but to be funny, not hurtful.

If you stick around ( actually you've already met post and signature requirements) and get to know the crowd, you'll find out we're a very close knit group who comes here to share knowledge, help others, and not just with Saturns.

I hope you do stay.
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W r t the ects; the problem can actually be nastier if some else replaced it before, b c you don't know where they sourced it from. As mentioned previously, aftermarket ects s are hit n miss because they seem to be inconsistent with respect to R vs T calibration. While this may seem esoteric, its actually often ( but not always) the root of a problem where a/f mix comes into play.
Also, as rube pointed out, the state of the connector is of importance as well. When the orig resin tipped sesors failed, they usually leaked coolant into the electrical connector, causing corrosion of the terminals. The ects only has a few hundred ohms of resistance at operating temp, so even small additions of resistance to this circuit can cause major problems.

If the terminals on the ects or connector have any trace of coolant or corrosion, I would recommend you replace them both w gm parts. No I do not work for gm and no not every last thing on the s car needs to be OEM, but this one has been proven over and over.

Also, if you have a dial based fuel pressure gauge, per Unc, if it has a long enough hose, snake it down betw the windshield and the hood, latch the hood to the first click, and go for a drive. You should easily be able to tell if that is oscillating when it acts up.

 

I might suggest one other possibility that is also common with the 2000-2002 SL1 engines and that is the intake manifold gasket. Typically it will give you a warm idle speed of around 950 rpm instead of the normal 750. It is easy to check by spraying something like WD40 or carb cleaner on the gasket and listen for a change in the idle. Any change, good or bad indicates a leak.

The most common failure area is around the #1 cylinder, top outboard. There is no bolt on that corner so it tends to suck in the gasket at that point. Be sure to use a metal backed after market gasket (felpro) instead of the fabric factory gasket.

Be sure to test before you replace as it is not easy to replace. The GM difficulty enhancement engineers put in a lot of overtime to make sure this job would not be easy.

 

Dang it Keith!
Welcome back from the shadows, and thanks for pointing that out -- AGAIN.
But wouldn't he expect a P0301, or can the leak be small enough not to cause an actual misfire. just a "funkyfire" (I'm claiming rights to that as a new word) due to the addl air being sucked in and leaning out the mixture in cyl 1?

 

I've had two intake manifold gaskets go out and neither gave a P0301. Both gave a P0507 (or 9, I forget which), but you only get that code if you"re stuck in traffic and idle at 950 or higher for 2 minutes, on two successive drive cycles. It is possible to have a slightly rough idle ("funkyfire") and if you never get stuck in traffic, you may never get a code or an SES light.

Its easy to check though.

 

So you can have the intake manifold issue without coding if there is no true misfire (as detected by the ICM). I always assumed it would code with a P0301 b c the roughness in idle would be caused by a true misfire.

Good to know.

Thank you